♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 26, 2009 14:01:47 GMT
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534805,00.html QUOTE: Wisconsin Dad on Trial in 11-Year-Old Girl's Faith-Healing Death Saturday , July 25, 2009 A Wisconsin man accused of killing his daughter by praying instead of seeking lifesaving medical help considered her illness "a test of his faith," a prosecutor told jurors Saturday. Dale Neumann, 47, is a "full-Gospel Christian," who did not know his 11-year-old daughter had diabetes, his defense attorney said. There's also not "a shred of evidence" Neumann knew his prayers would fail to help his daughter or cause her death, the lawyer said. Neumann is charged with second-degree reckless homicide in the 2008 death of his daughter Madeline Neumann, called Kara by her parents. His wife, Leilani, was convicted of the same charge this spring and faces up to 25 years in prison when sentenced Oct. 6. The girl died from undiagnosed diabetes on March 23, 2008, surrounded by people praying at the family's rural home in Weston in central Wisconsin. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing. Prosecutors contend Neumann recklessly killed the youngest of his four children by ignoring her deteriorating health. They claim the girl was too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk and Neumann had a legal duty to take her to a doctor. Marathon County Circuit Judge Vincent Howard scheduled opening statements during a rare Saturday court session to try to make sure the trial ended by Friday. An eight-man, six-woman jury begins hearing witness testimony Monday. An Oregon jury on Thursday convicted a father of misdemeanor criminal mistreatment for relying on prayer instead of seeking medical care for his 15-month-old daughter who died of pneumonia and a blood infection in March 2008. The father and mother were acquitted of a more serious manslaughter charge. Marathon County Assistant District Attorney Lance Leonhard stood next to a picture of a smiling Madeline Neumann on a large TV screen as he told the jury the sweet, mild-mannered child liked arts and crafts and loved her God. "This case is not about parents having the right to raise their children as they see fit or the right to pray," he said. "This case is about Madeline Kara Neumann's needless suffering and death." Her parents knew the child was gravely ill — they had used a large syringe to squirt chicken broth in her mouth to give her nourishment, Leonhard said. Still, he said, "They depended solely on God to heal her." Dale Neumann told a Bible study friend he considered his daughter's illness "a test of his faith," Leonhard said. No one can survive untreated diabetes, but medical statistics show 998 out of 1,000 people in the same stage of illness as Kara can be successfully treated with fluids and insulin, he said. Defense attorney Jay Kronenwetter told jurors the efforts of the ambulance attendants or doctors who eventually cared for Kara might have caused her death. It's also not certain the girl would have lived if she had gotten to doctors earlier, he said. "Quite likely, what they would have done, the standard procedures, would have hastened her death because of the way diabetes was operating in her body," Kronenwetter said. "Not every tragedy is a crime." Neumann tried to help his daughter, the defense attorney said. "Dale Neumann solicited the help of numerous individuals to pray," Kronenwetter said. "He did that because of his faith, because he believed that was what would save his daughter."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2009 16:57:53 GMT
Anna, thanks for the link; it would be interesting to follow the trial and hear what the witnesses had to say.
A member of the bible study group knew what this family was doing; I wonder what he and other members of the church thought of it all.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 27, 2009 5:05:27 GMT
This is a very sad story! I'm sure there were no criminal motives involved, but a fanatical refusal to seek medical help because of religious convictions will lead to more negligent homicide cases. i don't want tragedies like this to be repeated. www.wsaw.com/home/headlines/51746937.html QUOTE: Testimony Begins Monday in Dale Neumann Homicide Trial Posted: 7:13 PM Jul 26, 2009 Last Updated: 10:48 PM Jul 26, 2009 Reporter: WSAW Staff Email Address: news@wsaw.com Monday marks day four of the Dale Neumann homicide trial and day one of testimony. The 47-year-old is on trial for second degree reckless homicide in the death of his 11-year-old daughter, Kara. His wife Leilani was convicted of the same charge in May and awaits sentencing. Prosecutors say Neumann recklessly killed his daughter by not getting her medical treatment for undiagnosed diabetes. Neumann’s defense attorney says his client prayed for her recovery, because that is what he truly believed would save the girl. There are 12 witnesses on the list for Monday’s opening day of testimony, including Leilani. Also scheduled to take the stand are police officers, doctors and other Neumann family members.
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Post by Liberator on Jul 27, 2009 13:58:52 GMT
I wonder how many cases of this sort too are connected with medical care not being a right.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 28, 2009 6:24:01 GMT
www.wsaw.com/home/headlines/51819487.html QUOTE: Tuesday begins day 5 in the Dale Neumann homicide trial, and day two of testimony. It's also when his wife, Leilani is expected to take the stand. The prosecution claims Dale Neumann prayed for his 11-year-old daughter Kara, instead of getting her medical treatment for her undiagnosed diabetes. He's charged with second degree reckless homicide in her death. His wife, Leilani was convicted of the same charge in May, and awaits sentencing. Eight jurors took the stand Monday on the first day of the prosecution's testimonies. The day began with a powerful statement from Dale's sister-in-law, Susan Newmann. She testified she went to police with her concerns about a mass suicide in Dale Neumann's family. She says she feared this could happen, because she couldn't understand why the father didn't get her sick daughter to a doctor. Another important witness was Ariel Neff, who flew from California to take the stand. Although she wasn't as emotional Monday than in Leilani's trial in May, the ex-sister-in-law of Leilani Neumann had her dispatch calls played for the jury. Other jurors included a Marathon County dispatcher, Everest Metro police officer, two doctors and two EMS workers. "I noticed that she was-her jaw was sunken in and defined. She was white and extremely skinny beyond just normal skinny child, she was bone-like, skeleton-like," said EMS worker Hyden Prausa. Judge Vincent Howard also ruled Leilani Neumann could testify as a witness. Her defense attorney says they plan to implement the "Use Law" during her testimony. It means what she says during testimony, won't be used against her during sentencing in October. She's expected to take the stand in her husbands trial Tuesday. You can follow the entire Dale Neumann trial right here on Newschannel 7 and streaming LIVE on our webchannel www.wsaw.com.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2009 9:02:22 GMT
I wonder how many cases of this sort too are connected with medical care not being a right. A similar thought went through my mind. Was the family covered by medical insurance I wonder - and who would have paid if the parents couldn't or wouldn't?
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Post by Liberator on Jul 28, 2009 18:01:12 GMT
It came out of discussions on another boards, mostly raving on about the evils of Obama's health care plans. As well as the obvious of trying to avoid the cost even if there is insurance, there's a subtler one that puts everything on a level and plays right into American ideas of all the freedom you can buy. If you're buying treatment, then it's easy to think of all treatments as equally valid competitors. That goes for religious options too. Of course it's sad but there's a lot more to a case that goes on like this when it's obvious the girl was getting worse than where there just might be some sympathy if it had been something sudden.
I always find a strange arrogance about these people expecting the Almighty to alter the laws of nature just for their benefit. There's a little story about somebody up a tree in a flood and when various people pass keeps telling them to keep going "Because the Lord will rescue me". When he drowns and meets God, he asks why he never rescued him, God tells him "I sent rafts and boats and even a helicopter and you turned them all down, what more do you want?"
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Post by Liberator on Jul 28, 2009 20:56:02 GMT
As it happens: Faith-healing parents found not guilty of manslaughter 10:32 AM MDT on Friday, July 24, 2009 By KGW.com, NWCN.com and Associated Press OREGON CITY, Ore. - After six days of deliberations, an Oregon City jury found Carl Brent Worthington and his wife Raylene Worthington not guilty of manslaughter in the death of their young daughter, but found the husband guilty of a lesser charge. Prosecutors say the Oregon City couple chose prayer over seeking medical help to save their sick 15-month-old daughter, Ava, who died in March 2008 of pneumonia and a blood infection. Doctors say she could have been saved by a simple antibiotic. The Worthingtons were charged with manslaughter and criminal mistreatment. The wife was acquitted on both charges, while the jury found Carl Brent Worthington guilty of criminal mistreatment in the second degree. Carl Brent Worthington could now face a maximum sentence of one year in prison. Carl Brent Worthington and his wife Raylene listen to the verdict as read by Judge Steven Maurer in Oregon City, Ore. The Worthingtons are members of a small church that shuns conventional medicine in favor of faith healing. They claimed they didn't even know their daughter was seriously ill. Case goes to jury After 11 days of testimony, two days of closing arguments and a judicial tongue lashing, the Clackamas County jury began deliberating late Wednesday on the case that has garnered national attention. The manslaughter and criminal mistreatment charges against the two were given to the jury late in the day Wednesday. It had only minutes behind closed doors before going home for the night. The case is the first since the Legislature passed a law in 1999 that bars defenses based on religious practices in most abuse cases. It was a response to deaths among members of churches such as the independent congregation the Worthingtons belong to, the Followers of Christ. Clackamas County Judge Steven Maurer A judge on Wednesday harshly scolded defense attorneys during summation for referring to a similar case he had specifically instructed that they not cite. Clackamas County Judge Steven Maurer lashed out at one defense lawyer for referring several times to a faith-healing case out of Milwaukie some years ago. "This is treading on very dangerous ground," Maurer said. "It goes beyond simply the matter of impropriety," to ignore the judge's orders, he added. "I am stunned, ablsolutely stunned you pulled this stunt." Raylene Worthington testified Monday that neither she nor her two kids had ever been seen a doctor, but that she said she was committed to protecting her daughter, even if her own life depended on it. “What would a reasonable person do if they saw their child was struggling to breathe? They’d take that person to a doctor immediately,” Clackamas County Deputy District Attorney Steve Mygrant said in his arguments. “What would a reasonable person do if their child stopped breathing? Call 9-1-1. This is not an indictment against prayer faith, spirituality this is an indictment against parents who didn’t do their legal duty,” Mygrant said. Both have testified that they did what they thought best for their daughter. They said they didn't think Ava was seriously ill and that she died of a fast-acting infection. Prosecutors told another story. They recalled statements by the couple to detectives detailing how family and friends stayed at the house when Ava was ill. Raylene Worthington said she could not remember if she’d asked her husband for medical attention, district attorneys said. “I wasn’t in any state to be answering questions,” she said. “I was extremely upset and tired and I was in a state of shock. I don’t even remember what my answers were to those questions.” Prosecutors and state doctors say the child could have been saved. They say she died of a longstanding condition, a cyst on her neck that impeded her breathing and fostered the disease that killed her. “She just wasn’t feeling well," Raylene added. "She had made a small improvement the time before when we’d laid hands on her, but then she had just not made any further improvements then so I wanted her to do even, more better.” Mygrant claimed the parents failed to properly care for Ava. “The Worthingtons dug their heels and refused to acknowledge their duty” Mygrant added Tuesday. “The state has a special interest in protecting children who can’t protect themselves and that’s why we’re here. Even after the fact that they lost their little girl, they still wouldn’t do anything differently. “ KGW Reporter Katherine Cook contributed to this report. www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/ktvba-jul2409-verdict_faith_healing_trial.70cf282a.html
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Aug 2, 2009 7:15:08 GMT
The article makes reference to the Oregon case, which Retarsed posted. The Wisconsin case is more serious because the girl couldn't eat or drink and was completely emaciated at the time of death. www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,535861,00.html QUOTE: Dad Who Prayed for Sick Girl Found Guilty in Her Death Saturday , August 01, 2009 A central Wisconsin man accused of killing his 11-year-old daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care was found guilty Saturday of second-degree reckless homicide. Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted in the March 23, 2008, death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes. Prosecutors contended he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she couldn't walk, talk, eat or drink. Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing. PHOTOS: Dad on Trial in Faith-Healing Death of Diabetic Girl Sitting straight in his chair, Neumann stared at the jury as the verdict in a nearly empty courtroom was read. He declined comment as he left the courthouse. Defense attorney Jay Kronenwetter said the verdict would be appealed. He declined further comment. Prosecutors also declined comment, citing a gag order. Leilani Neumann, 41, was convicted on the same charge in the spring. Marathon County Circuit Judge Vincent Howard set Oct. 6 for sentencing for both parents, who face up to 25 years in prison. Their case is believed to be the first in Wisconsin involving faith healing in which someone died and another person was charged with a homicide. Last month, an Oregon jury convicted a man of misdemeanor criminal mistreatment for relying on prayer instead of seeking medical care for his 15-month-old daughter who died of pneumonia and a blood infection in March 2008. Both of the girl's parents were acquitted of a more serious manslaughter charge. Neumann's jury — six men and six women — deliberated about 15 hours over two days before convicting him. At one point, jurors asked the judge whether Neumann's belief in faith healing made him "not liable" for not taking his daughter to the hospital even if he knew she wasn't feeling well. Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, testified Thursday that he believed God would heal his daughter and he never expected her to die. God promises in the Bible to heal, he said. "If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," Neumann testified. "I am not believing what he said he would do." The father testified that he thought Madeline had the flu or a fever, and several relatives and family friends said they also did not realize how sick she was. Assistant District Attorney LaMont Jacobson told jurors in closing arguments Friday that Neumann was "overwhelmed by pride" in his interpretation of the Bible and selfishly let Madeline die as a test of faith. Neumann knew he should have taken his daughter to a doctor and minimized her illness when speaking with investigators, Jacobson said, calling Neumann no different than a drunken driver who remarks he only had a couple of beers. Doctors testified that Madeline would have had a good chance of survival if she had received medical care, including insulin and fluids, before she stopped breathing. Kronenwetter told the jury that Neumann sincerely believed praying would heal his daughter and he did nothing criminally wrong. "Dale Neumann was doing what he thought would work for his daughter," Kronenwetter said. "He was administering faith healing. He thought it was working."
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Post by everso on Aug 5, 2009 22:52:08 GMT
I always find a strange arrogance about these people expecting the Almighty to alter the laws of nature just for their benefit. There's a little story about somebody up a tree in a flood and when various people pass keeps telling them to keep going "Because the Lord will rescue me". When he drowns and meets God, he asks why he never rescued him, God tells him "I sent rafts and boats and even a helicopter and you turned them all down, what more do you want?" Yes, I remember that one! Do the parents have any other children? If so, they should be taken into care.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 23, 2009 22:33:26 GMT
Most parents would put a bandage on a child's wound or take him/her to a doctor to heal a broken leg. The church that the Neumann's belong to, unlike "Christian Science" does not forbid "medical intervention". www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341869,00.html QUOTE: Wisconsin Parents Didn't Expect Daughter to Die During Prayer Wednesday, March 26, 2008 WESTON, Wis. — The mother of an 11-year-old girl who died of untreated diabetes said Wednesday that she did not know her daughter was terminally ill as she prayed for her to get better. Madeline Neumann died Sunday from a treatable form of diabetes. Her mother, Leilani Neumann, told The Associated Press that she never expected her daughter, whom she called Kara, to die. The family believes in the Bible, and it says healing comes from God, but they are not crazy, religious people, she said. Click here to read a testimonial by Leilani Neumann on AmericasLastDays.com. The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he has friends who are doctors. He started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body, he said. Other family members called 911 to seek emergency help, Leilani Neumann said. "We are remaining strong for our children," she said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time." The couple has three other children. Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin has said an autopsy determined Madeline died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body. She had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, he said. But Leilani Neumann said her daughter, a straight A student, was in good health until recently. "We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering." Her daughter had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she explained. The family does not belong to an organized religion or faith, Leilani Neumann said. "We just believe in the Bible, that's all," she said. "This is our faith." Her husband added that, "We believe the word of God and live according to its precepts." Leilani Neumann said the family is not worried about a police investigation into her daughter's death because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do." Vergin said he expect the investigation to wrap up by Friday and the findings to be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges. The family moved to Weston from California about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives, the Neumanns said. They live in rural Weston, in a modern, middle class home in the some woods. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway. Officers went to the home after a relative in California asked police to check on the girl. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead. According to Vergin, the parents told investigators Madeline last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester, he said. Mrs. Neumann said she deeply loves all her children and has nurtured them spiritually, emotionally and physically. "Our lives are in God's hands and whatever we go through we are just going to trust him," she said. "We need healing. We are going through the healing process."
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Post by cammie on Sept 26, 2009 1:12:02 GMT
If a patient does not have medical insurance, they can go to the local county hospital. After all, illegal immigrants without insurance go to county hospitals.
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Post by chefmate on Sept 26, 2009 1:34:39 GMT
If a patient does not have medical insurance, they can go to the local county hospital. After all, illegal immigrants without insurance go to county hospitals. yea, and because of that we are losing emergency rooms in California as the illegals have busted the system.
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Post by mikemarshall on Sept 28, 2009 15:06:52 GMT
This is a very sad situation. As an agnostic, I freely admit that I would marginally prefer to trust to the ministrations of the healthcare professionals (in spite of my serious reservations about them) than to place my trust in the putative powers of prayer or other forms of religious intercession.
On the other hand, unbeliever though I am, I do admit that I have on occasion prayed in the vain hope that perhaps it just might make a difference. It is what Pascal referred to as the 'bet' situation I suppose.
As someone who has a son with genetic defects, I freely confess that I did say a prayer when he was born that some miracle cure might be found. Sadly, none has yet appeared, although we continue to take little Lou to hospital and give him physiotherapy and counselling. It is a deeply distressing state of affairs particularly for one who is such a lovable individual.
I apologise for intruding personal concerns on this thread.
On the specific matter of the family's behaviour, I have to say that it is every parent's duty to seek medical treatment for a sick child. There is nothing to prevent them from seeking to aid that treatment by the use of prayer or other non-allopathic methods if they so wish.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 29, 2009 13:28:20 GMT
Dearest Mike! Your personal input is appreciated! I read and reread the stories in the New Testament of Christ healing so many people. A passage ( bible.cc/john/9-3.htm ) makes me suspect that those who were healed were "special cases" allowed to be healed only in that brief period while Christ was physically on earth. I suspect Kara's parents probably would have taken her to the doctor, if she broke her leg and certainly would have given her a bandage, if she cut herself. They didn't understand the sickness Kara had and took the wrong course of action. Kara's parents will appeal their negligent homicide convictions on October 6, 2009. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Neumann_case
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2009 14:30:52 GMT
It looks as if the family lied - they said the girl had been in good health but apparently she had not attended school. That in itself makes me think they are a bunch of hypocrites.
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♫anna♫
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The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 6, 2009 19:51:53 GMT
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,560941,00.html QUOTE: Wisconsin Parents Face 25 Years in Prison When They're Sentenced in Daughter's Prayer Death Tuesday , October 06, 2009 A Wisconsin mother and father convicted of reckless homicide for praying instead of taking their dying daughter to a doctor could spend up to 25 years in prison. Dale and Leilani Neumann will be sentenced Tuesday in the death of 11-year-old Madeline Neumann, who died on their living room floor from undiagnosed diabetes as they prayed rather than getting her medical treatment. Separate juries convicted each of second-degree reckless homicide in Madeline's Easter 2008 death. The juries ruled the parents had a legal duty to rush the girl to a doctor after she could no longer walk, talk, eat or drink. A family friend finally called 911 after the girl stopped breathing. The parents, who have three other teen-age children, say they believe all healing comes from God. Their attorneys have said the convictions will be appealed. Among the factors Judge Vincent Howard must consider in sentencing the parents are deterrence and protection of the public.
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♫anna♫
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The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 15, 2009 20:50:07 GMT
I think the light sentence is appropriate in this case. It would be wrong imprison the parents and put the Neumann's other children in a foster home. www.wsaw.com/home/headlines/69415142.html QUOTE: Dale and Leilani Neumann seem to be following the terms of their sentence. Last month a judge ordered each of the Weston parents to do 120 hours of community service. A probation supervisor says the Neumanns are just waiting to be matched with an organization to help out. "We have working agreements with private agencies, such as United Way agency, animal shelters, those types of agencies that need labor, but at the same time can't afford to pay wages," says Mike Williams, a Parole and Probation Officer. Both will also be required to spend 30 days in jail each year for the next 6 years. The Neumanns were convicted in separate trials of second degree reckless homicide in the death of their 11-year-old daughter Kara, who died from untreated diabetes in March of 2008.
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