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Post by Big Lin on Oct 23, 2012 21:58:52 GMT
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Post by Hunny on Oct 24, 2012 1:35:02 GMT
Now, that's what I've been talking about!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 9:20:19 GMT
So how could Cameron spend money to reduce reoffending? Prison may not work in this respect, but does anything else in the grander scale of things?
Prison isn't just for rehabilitation but more could be done for prisoners.
I was a bit amused with the Guardian article about sending prisoners away with "the price of a sandwich". Given that many immediately blow the lot on drunk or drugs, it would be better to give them the sandwich.
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Post by Hunny on Oct 24, 2012 13:09:23 GMT
So how could Cameron spend money to reduce reoffending? Prison may not work in this respect, but does anything else in the grander scale of things? Prison isn't just for rehabilitation but more could be done for prisoners. I was a bit amused with the Guardian article about sending prisoners away with "the price of a sandwich". Given that many immediately blow the lot on drunk or drugs, it would be better to give them the sandwich. In the United States we think of jail as having the purpose of "punishing", and so if it's horrible there, the mean-hearted public thinks that's fine. In Europe (especially Scandinavia), my understanding is, the prison model leans more towards rehabilitation than punishing, and the result is they have less people in jail, less recidivism, less crime. England's problem is they follow the United States too much. It's hard to imagine you would, but your government does...and we're no one to imitate!
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Post by Big Lin on Oct 24, 2012 15:09:07 GMT
So how could Cameron spend money to reduce reoffending? Prison may not work in this respect, but does anything else in the grander scale of things? Prison isn't just for rehabilitation but more could be done for prisoners. I was a bit amused with the Guardian article about sending prisoners away with "the price of a sandwich". Given that many immediately blow the lot on drunk or drugs, it would be better to give them the sandwich. In the United States we think of jail as having the purpose of "punishing", and so if it's horrible there, the mean-hearted public thinks that's fine. In Europe (especially Scandinavia), my understanding is, the prison model leans more towards rehabilitation than punishing, and the result is they have less people in jail, less recidivism, less crime. England's problem is they follow the United States too much. It's hard to imagine you would, but your government does...and we're no one to imitate! OK, I'm probably very untypical of a prison reformer because I support the death penalty, corporal punishment for crimes of violence, Sheriff Joe type hard labour programmes and castration with LWOP for rapists and paedophiles. On the other hand we could easily sort out the nonsense of the overcrowded prisons by following the Linda Marshall 10-point plan! 1 Bring back the death penalty so murderers get executed 2 Make community service a REAL punishment generally with a hard labour component 3 Legalise drugs; that way the government collects money from tax, the pushers go out of business or have to turn to other types of crime, the junkies get healthcare treatment instead of being locked up in prison where they almost invariably become worse. 4 Legalise prostitution; that way the government can collect tax money for it and regulate it to the greater safety of sex workers. 5 Use judicial corporal punishment as an alternative to prison as well as an adjunct to it for crimes of violence 6 Release ALL non-violent offenders from prison and put them on community service programmes. 7 All prisoners who are NOT going to be executed or serving a whole life tariff MUST be extensively educated and rehabilitated in prison 8 All prison guards MUST protect prisoners against the horrific level of rape and violence that goes on in jails 9 Always try to find a non-custodial alternative to prison in sentencing unless it's rape, murder, attempted murder or crimes of violence 10 Deport foreign criminals back to their countries when their prison sentence has finished All these measures would free up prisons for DANGEROUS criminals who we ALL want to see locked up; save the taxpayer millions; reduce the rate of crime; benefit the wider economy; and drastically reduce the rate of reoffending. That is what Dodgy Dave Cameron SHOULD be doing. When he came to power Ken Clarke tried to get him to introduce more sensible prison policies but at the first sight of trouble the Tories have gone back to the old and failed retributive policies. Yes, prison IS a punishment but it must also (at least for those inmates who will one day be released back into the community) have a rehabilitative focus as its priority.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 16:12:38 GMT
In the United States we think of jail as having the purpose of "punishing", and so if it's horrible there, the mean-hearted public thinks that's fine.
It is sometimes said that people are sent to prison as a punishment, not for punishment; in other words, it is the loss of liberty that matters, and while prisoners shouldn't be kept in five star accommodation, conditions must be humane.
I see nothing wrong with retribution; some say that as a reason for punishment it is the only one that treats the offender as a rational human being who must now pay for the misdeeds. And retribution is useful as a limiting tool; eg you can't send a petty shoplifter down for six months because you think that is what is needed to geet him off drugs.
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Post by Atticus on Oct 24, 2012 16:19:40 GMT
OK, I'm probably very untypical of a prison reformer because I support the death penalty, corporal punishment for crimes of violence, Sheriff Joe type hard labour programmes and castration with LWOP for rapists and paedophiles. On the other hand we could easily sort out the nonsense of the overcrowded prisons by following the Linda Marshall 10-point plan! 1 Bring back the death penalty so murderers get executed I assuming you mean with in a certain time frame? If so I could agree. 2 Make community service a REAL punishment generally with a hard labour component Disagree here. It sounds good in principle, but it kills jobs. 3 Legalise drugs; that way the government collects money from tax, the pushers go out of business or have to turn to other types of crime, the junkies get healthcare treatment instead of being locked up in prison where they almost invariably become worse. Legalization is not needed. What's needed is the decriminalization of drug use. It needs to be treated more like DUI. Fines that create revenue. 4 Legalise prostitution; that way the government can collect tax money for it and regulate it to the greater safety of sex workers. Government can't control themselves... I'm not sure I want them in charge of the safety of sex. 5 Use judicial corporal punishment as an alternative to prison as well as an adjunct to it for crimes of violence Way to many rights could be violated. We're stronger than other nations because we don't beat our citizens. 6 Release ALL non-violent offenders from prison and put them on community service programmes. Again the concept sounds good, but it kills jobs. 7 All prisoners who are NOT going to be executed or serving a whole life tariff MUST be extensively educated and rehabilitated in prison How do you force a person to learn? This implies we are all made equal and we are not. Some of us are Doctors and lawyers, while others laborers. All are of value to our society. 8 All prison guards MUST protect prisoners against the horrific level of rape and violence that goes on in jails Agreed, although I'm not sure where the money would come from to accomplish this. 9 Always try to find a non-custodial alternative to prison in sentencing unless it's rape, murder, attempted murder or crimes of violence I'm not sure I agree. While white collar crimes may not be violent, their effect can be just as deadly. 10 Deport foreign criminals back to their countries when their prison sentence has finished Agreed, though I would use the words illegal immigrants. All these measures would free up prisons for DANGEROUS criminals who we ALL want to see locked up; save the taxpayer millions; reduce the rate of crime; benefit the wider economy; and drastically reduce the rate of reoffending. That is what Dodgy Dave Cameron SHOULD be doing. When he came to power Ken Clarke tried to get him to introduce more sensible prison policies but at the first sight of trouble the Tories have gone back to the old and failed retributive policies. Yes, prison IS a punishment but it must also (at least for those inmates who will one day be released back into the community) have a rehabilitative focus as its priority.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 16:35:14 GMT
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Post by sadie1263 on Oct 24, 2012 17:58:39 GMT
Can politicians tell the truth about anything?
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Post by Atticus on Oct 24, 2012 18:21:45 GMT
Can politicians tell the truth about anything? If I may answer with a question, do we want politicians to tell us the truth on anything? Past elections would suggest we do not. If that is the case, our goal becomes to elect the best liar. Odd we have so many fight for that honor.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 20:44:57 GMT
Atticus, that is awfully profound, but I've a horrid idea that you have hit upon the bid weakness of democracy; we want to hear what we want to hear!
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Post by Atticus on Oct 24, 2012 21:23:43 GMT
Atticus, that is awfully profound, but I've a horrid idea that you have hit upon the bid weakness of democracy; we want to hear what we want to hear! I don't know if democracy has a weakness or if the weakness belongs to those that live under its rule. It's very true we all want to hear what we want to hear. However if we accept it as a reality that all politicians lie, how can we than pretend one is better then the other?
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Post by Hunny on Oct 24, 2012 21:37:21 GMT
Atticus, that is awfully profound, but I've a horrid idea that you have hit upon the bid weakness of democracy; we want to hear what we want to hear! I don't know if democracy has a weakness or if the weakness belongs to those that live under its rule. It's very true we all want to hear what we want to hear. However if we accept it as a reality that all politicians lie, how can we than pretend one is better then the other? The Republicans lie more. They have to. Their interests oppose those of the people they have to trick into voting for them. (They're only interested in doing favors for the rich and they have contempt for those who used to be the middle class)........The Democrats, on the other hand - at least used to - represent the interests of the people, aiming to "build a great society", "end the poverty cycle" etc. The real problem with honesty in politics though is that by definition politics is "the art of compromise" (fancy speak for lying gracefully and pulling tricks and making deals). And the very act of having two-party shenanigans instead of real workable governance is kind of stupid of us to do as a country.
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Post by Big Lin on Oct 24, 2012 21:53:25 GMT
I'm not suggesting that people who commit non-violent crimes shouldn't be punished; I'm suggesting that prison is not the BEST way of punishing them. And I think you can see from my 10-point plan that I'm not exactly a weak-kneed softie on crime!
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Post by Atticus on Oct 24, 2012 22:08:08 GMT
The Republicans lie more. They have to. Their interests oppose those of the people they have to trick into voting for them. (They're only interested in doing favors for the rich and they have contempt for those who used to be the middle class)........The Democrats, on the other hand - at least used to - represent the interests of the people, aiming to "build a great society", "end the poverty cycle" etc. The real problem with honesty in politics though is that by definition politics is "the art of compromise" (fancy speak for lying gracefully and pulling tricks and making deals). And the very act of having two-party shenanigans instead of real workable governance is kind of stupid of us to do as a country. I can agree there are two political concepts that politicians use to make their claims.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 7:43:22 GMT
It would certainly be good if culprits could pay back the money they'd fiddled, but if you make community punishment too tough, people don't comply and they end up in prison anyway. I'll have to hunt out the figures, but the failure rate is already quite high.
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Post by toby on Oct 28, 2012 17:02:00 GMT
Hunny posted.:-In Europe (especially Scandinavia), my understanding is, the prison model leans more towards rehabilitation than punishing, and the result is they have less people in jail, less recidivism, less crime.
Toby comments.:- But you are talking about Swedish people, not the scum that inhabits jails in the USA. Swedish people are intelligent enough to accept rehabilitation and also realise where they went wrong and strive not to get put back in prison again. In the USA criminals gladly go to prison, they get a new set of tattooe's, they meet their buddies, and they learn new crime techniques as well as gaining the glory of having done their stretch. So I advise, don't compare north Europe with USA.
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Post by toby on Oct 28, 2012 17:07:52 GMT
Skylark posted.:-Not just white collar crimes either; conning people especially old or vulnerable people, out of ther life savings is one of the worst crimes I can think of.
Toby comments.:- Agree 100% ! Let us consider the governments levying Taxes on poor folk to promote illegal wars, this does happen. The problem being is that governments have connived to make it very difficult to get rid of them and it's nearly impossible to change the Monarchy even though it has been proven that other people have a better claim to the throne.
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