♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 15, 2010 2:56:32 GMT
I think people with Down's Syndome have at least the same if not a greater risk of passing their genetic defects on to children than incest couples do. I find this radio audio link disturbing! www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=130540395&m=130573128 Monica & David follows a young couple with Down syndrome through the early days of their married life -- and turns a keen eye on their parents' struggle to let them live a life of their own. www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130540395 QUOTE: October 14, 2010 In 1983, the life expectancy for people with Down syndrome was 25. Today, it's 60. A documentary airing Oct. 14 on HBO tells the story of two adults with Down syndrome who get married. Monica & David is about their courtship and their married life together. But the documentary is also about what it's like to be a parent of someone with an intellectual disability. Monica's mother, Marie Elena Walters, is indomitable. When Monica was a toddler, Walters' husband walked out. Realizing Monica may never be self-sufficient, Walters set out to get a high-paying job so she could take care of her. "I firmly believe my life's work is Monica," says Walters in the film. But Walters also admits that she — and other parents of children with disabilities — can be overprotective to a fault. "Because we want to protect them so much," says Walters, "we are typically the first ones who treat them poorly by subconsciously denying them their rights to have a normal life." The documentary, by filmmaker Ali Codina, begins the night before Monica and David's wedding. It's obvious they're crazy about each other. David calls Monica his "Winnie the Pooh." When David calls her on the phone, Monica rushes to answer it, saying, "My baby! He's worried about me." Even so, Codina says, some people in Monica and David's circle treated their wedding like it was just a "cute gesture between kids." Codina, who's Monica's first cousin, saw something very different. Monica and David at their wedding J Miguel/HBO David and Monica are all smiles as they start their new life together. "To me the wedding was something very powerful, very serious and very adult," she says. About 200 people attended the wedding. But the absences were telling. Codina says the parents of some of Monica and David's friends — friends who also have intellectual disabilities — did not let their adult children attend because "they thought it would fill their sons and daughters' heads with ideas." Monica and David are very positive people who are eager to please. But Codina says that growing up, she often felt there was more going on "beneath the surface." Codina was hoping her film would stir it up. Monica and David wish to be independent — and in the film, their mothers' struggle with this becomes palpable. They grapple with just how much independence their adult children can handle. In many ways, Monica and David seem like any conventional married couple. They do chores around the house together. Monica fusses when her husband takes too long to fold the laundry. But the documentary also hints at their limits. While Codina was filming, the family moved from a house to an apartment — a change that, as the movie shows, completely unsettles Monica. Bewildered, she stands in her now-empty bedroom, wondering where everything went. "No pajamas? No armoire? How am I going to sleep?" Monica's inability to understand what's going on just adds to her mother's own stress about the move. "It's not connecting. It's not that she doesn't want to realize it; it's just not connecting that we're definitely not here tonight," Walters says in the film. Monica & David won Best Documentary at last year's Tribeca Film Festival. It airs on HBO beginning Thursday, Oct. 14, and over the past few weeks, Monica and David have been traveling with Codina to attend special screenings of the film around the country. They're riding in limos and doing interviews. Monica Walters Martinez — she took David's name when they got married — says it's been a thrill. "To see the people, the standing ovation, clapping for us ... the party after, the limo and the red carpet, it's pretty exciting," she says. Codina believes the experience of making the film and talking about it has helped Monica and David "feel acknowledged and understood — and that means a lot to them." The Martinezes are now pursuing acting careers. And when they're on the road, Monica's mother says wistfully, they barely ever call home.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 8:07:45 GMT
My cousin had Downs and I was always led to believe such men were infertile. According to this article, most are: www.ds-health.com/issues.htmAlthough he did live beyond 60, the last five years or more were dogged by alzheimers, a common affliction for older Downs people.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 16, 2010 4:47:11 GMT
My cousin had Downs and I was always led to believe such men were infertile. According to this article, most are: www.ds-health.com/issues.htmAlthough he did live beyond 60, the last five years or more were dogged by alzheimers, a common affliction for older Downs people. I see Down's Syndrome as a real tragedy. I suppose if Down's Syndrome couples are infertle that would eliminate a major objection to them marrying. Should infertle incestuous couples be allowed to marry to then?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2010 13:37:10 GMT
Downs Syndrome isn't necessarily huge disability. Some Downs people can work and achieve a certain degree of independence. However other Downs children are born with severe physical complications, and the link I read suggests that a Downs parent does have a higher risk of producing a child with these complications. That's not to be encouraged, though if a Downs couple want to live together - why not?
|
|
|
Post by Synonym on Oct 20, 2010 2:53:10 GMT
I see Down's Syndrome as a real tragedy. I suppose if Down's Syndrome couples are infertle that would eliminate a major objection to them marrying. Should infertle incestuous couples be allowed to marry to then? Yes, they should be allowed, just as Doctors should be allowed to marry patients and the potential for a power imbalance in the relationship should not be an automatic legal barrier IMO.
|
|
|
Post by jean on Oct 20, 2010 8:40:04 GMT
We don't forbid cousins to marry and have children together, even though the risk of genetic defects being passed on is so great.
(I hesitated to post this in case it gave rise to another anti-Muslim outburst, but it is relevant...)
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Oct 20, 2010 13:54:24 GMT
We don't forbid cousins to marry and have children together, even though the risk of genetic defects being passed on is so great. (I hesitated to post this in case it gave rise to another anti-Muslim outburst, but it is relevant...) What has this got to do with anti-Muslim?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2010 15:58:17 GMT
Occasionally posters do come up with posts blaming Islam for cousin marriages, gabriel, and someone else comes along and says it isn't true, it is a cultural tradition from a people of all kinds of religions, and the thread kind of disintegrates!
|
|
|
Post by riotgrrl on Oct 20, 2010 18:44:55 GMT
Are we still on anti-Muslim ban, or has that been relaxed now in time for that Texas guy who wants to bomb everywhere for when he comes back his holidays?
He does like to link to weird out-there places and cut and post hate stuff.
As to people with Downs Syndrome marrying; why are we focussing on the DS part instead of the 'people' part? I can't see any reason whatsoever why it's anyone else's business whether they marry or not.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2010 6:47:44 GMT
As to people with Downs Syndrome marrying; why are we focussing on the DS part instead of the 'people' part? I can't see any reason whatsoever why it's anyone else's business whether they marry or not. The opening post explains why, I think; the risk of genetic defects. Now, this couple don't have serious problems or they wouldn't be doing what they are, but they are lucky; many Down's children are born with distressing complications. If this couple run a higher risk than the rest of us of having badly handicapped children, isn't that everyone's concern? Same argument that Jean raised about cousin marriages. Though DS people are often infertile, especially the males, so I don't think the problem is much to worry about. Significantly impaired fertility of both sexes is evident in the Down syndrome population (Rogers and Coleman, 1992). While males have long been assumed to be sterile, Sheridan reports one case of a cytogenetically normal male infant that was fathered by a man with Down syndrome (Sheridan et al, 1980). Women have impaired but still significant fertility: a number of reviews document women with Down syndrome carrying pregnancy to term and delivering infants with and without Down syndrome (Bovicelli et al, 1982; Rani et al, 1990). Infants born to mothers with Down syndrome are at increased risk for premature delivery and low birth weight (Bovicelli et al, 1982). Pregnancy outcomes obtained from a study of mothers with Down syndrome are displayed in Table 5. Whether a woman with Down syndrome constitutes a high risk pregnancy depends largely on cognitive level and medical status. Obviously, the presence of maternal cardiac, thyroid, or hepatic disease, as well as seizure disorder, complicates a pregnancy. The high incidence of congenital heart disease in any offspring with Down syndrome contributes to pregnancy risk, including stillbirth and neonatal death (Gordon, 1990). Offspring without Down syndrome have a greater than average number of congenital anomalies (Bovicelli et al 1982) (see Table 5).
|
|
|
Post by riotgrrl on Oct 21, 2010 15:27:50 GMT
As to people with Downs Syndrome marrying; why are we focussing on the DS part instead of the 'people' part? I can't see any reason whatsoever why it's anyone else's business whether they marry or not. The opening post explains why, I think; the risk of genetic defects. Now, this couple don't have serious problems or they wouldn't be doing what they are, but they are lucky; many Down's children are born with distressing complications. If this couple run a higher risk than the rest of us of having badly handicapped children, isn't that everyone's concern? Same argument that Jean raised about cousin marriages. Though DS people are often infertile, especially the males, so I don't think the problem is much to worry about. Significantly impaired fertility of both sexes is evident in the Down syndrome population (Rogers and Coleman, 1992). While males have long been assumed to be sterile, Sheridan reports one case of a cytogenetically normal male infant that was fathered by a man with Down syndrome (Sheridan et al, 1980). Women have impaired but still significant fertility: a number of reviews document women with Down syndrome carrying pregnancy to term and delivering infants with and without Down syndrome (Bovicelli et al, 1982; Rani et al, 1990). Infants born to mothers with Down syndrome are at increased risk for premature delivery and low birth weight (Bovicelli et al, 1982). Pregnancy outcomes obtained from a study of mothers with Down syndrome are displayed in Table 5. Whether a woman with Down syndrome constitutes a high risk pregnancy depends largely on cognitive level and medical status. Obviously, the presence of maternal cardiac, thyroid, or hepatic disease, as well as seizure disorder, complicates a pregnancy. The high incidence of congenital heart disease in any offspring with Down syndrome contributes to pregnancy risk, including stillbirth and neonatal death (Gordon, 1990). Offspring without Down syndrome have a greater than average number of congenital anomalies (Bovicelli et al 1982) (see Table 5).
And? And what? So if two individuals marry there is a higher risk of genetic defects. So what? Imagine if, before you were allowed to get married, you had to be tested (and your fiance(e)) just in case . . . No business of the state I say. Downs Syndrome people are people too, with the ability to love, to enjoy sex, to feel emotion. Why the hell should it be anybody else's business if they are not legally incapacitated? Eugenics.
|
|
|
Post by Synonym on Oct 21, 2010 16:51:32 GMT
Riot, I'm not saying it is right but social censure, like the law, is a blunt instrument. In principle it would be right to individually test every prospective couple for genetic concerns, but in practise it can only really work by generalisations. Some combinations of couples do intrinsically pose a greater risk of problems for any offspring than others, and it far easier for society to just frown upon relationships of these types fullstop than say that it is OK to have sexual relationship between brother and sister say, as long as they do not plan to procreate, or have been tested and it has been found that the odds of problems are no greater than normal, etc.
I do think that the censure is rooted in harm-avoidance and it works about the only way it practically can.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2010 18:09:35 GMT
<<No business of the state I say. Downs Syndrome people are people too, with the ability to love, to enjoy sex, to feel emotion.>>
Agreed, but it isn't that which causes the concern; it is the risk to unborn children. Marriage between Down people is not barred, but marriage between siblings is. But of course there is nothing to stop either group from having children outside marriage - so is it time to throw away the rule book?
|
|
|
Post by riotgrrl on Oct 21, 2010 21:19:48 GMT
<<No business of the state I say. Downs Syndrome people are people too, with the ability to love, to enjoy sex, to feel emotion.>> Agreed, but it isn't that which causes the concern; it is the risk to unborn children. Marriage between Down people is not barred, but marriage between siblings is. But of course there is nothing to stop either group from having children outside marriage - so is it time to throw away the rule book? Don't accept your comparison. There are reasons other than medical reasons why siblings are not allowed to marry. There are strong social reasons why it is not advisable for sexual relationships to occur within immediate family groups. Of course, it's one thing to make laws saying who can and can't marry; stopping those people having sex with each other is nigh to impossible. In society we maintain strong taboos to try to discourage it, but it's not preventable.
|
|
|
Post by Synonym on Oct 21, 2010 22:50:49 GMT
What are those social reasons? If you are talking about the risk of power imbalances then would that apply in the case of cousins?
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 22, 2010 3:50:38 GMT
The danger of Down's Syndrome parents passing their syndrome on to children is very real and frightening! www.downs-syndrome.org.uk/component/content/article/35-general/162-6-can-men-a-women-with-downs-syndrome-get-married-and-have-children.html QUOTE: 6. Can men & women with Down's syndrome get married and have children? People with Down's syndrome have the right to have personal and sexual relationships, and to get married. The DSA knows of a number of happily married couples where one or both partners have Down's syndrome. It is important that young people with Down's syndrome receive education in the area of relationships and sexuality. As in other areas of learning, they may need more support with this than some of their peers. Both women and men with Down's syndrome can be fertile, although both sexes have a reduced fertility rate. They therefore need advice on, and access to, contraception. People with Down's syndrome need careful and sensitive advice about having children, as there are a number of issues to consider. Some people with learning disabilities can successfully parent their children, given the right support. However, many couples with learning disabilities decide for themselves not to have children because of the responsibility and hard work involved, or for financial reasons. Where one parent has Down's syndrome, there is a 35% to 50% chance that the child would inherit the syndrome. This chance is even higher where both parents have Down's syndrome. There is also a high chance that pregnancy would end in miscarriage. Women with Down's syndrome are also more likely than other women to have a premature baby, or to need a caesarian section.
|
|
|
Post by riotgrrl on Oct 22, 2010 7:06:27 GMT
What are those social reasons? If you are talking about the risk of power imbalances then would that apply in the case of cousins? Well I was thinking more of people who grow up in the same house. Yes, partly the raising of the taboo (do you raise taboos? Can't think of the right verb) would result in vulnerable children and young people being sexually exploited by older or stronger siblings. But also, even if the siblings fully consented, if they formed their main sexual relationship with each other it would not be psychologically healthy. Young people need to look beyond the immediate family environment to grow and develop as people.
|
|
|
Post by riotgrrl on Oct 22, 2010 7:11:43 GMT
Anna, that is only frightening if you find the idea of anyone being born with DS frightening.
If you were an individual with DS you might find that kind of thinking quite offensive.
I would make comparisons with the deaf couple who have children knowing their children are likely to be deaf too. They live their life as deaf people and refuse to accept that there's anything wrong with them as people just because they lack a particular sense.
The disability rights extremists might consider that the only reason why a child being born with DS is a problem is because you are bigoted against disabled people. I'm not saying I'd share such a black and white view, but I can see where they're coming from.
To give a silly example, nobody in Scotland ever really wants a ginger kid, but people with ginger in the family would never hold back from having children just in case. They know that a ginger kid will face playground teasing and negative attitudes all their lives, but nonetheless, they take the risk. And they love their ginger kids and the ginger kids live full lives.
|
|
|
Post by jean on Oct 22, 2010 8:40:21 GMT
The people in the OP's illustration clearly have a mild form of the condition and are able to live full lives
More severe forms are a very different matte. I would not wish such a life on anyone, or their carers, or the rest of their family.
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Oct 22, 2010 10:35:38 GMT
<<No business of the state I say. becomes the bussines of the state in countries where the state has to keep them some downs are not capable of looking after a gold fish let alone a child[social workers coment]..wouldnt understand the process of giving birth etc let alone be capable of looking after a child or the physical health to have or look after a child luckily not all downs are the same..and the degrees of disability vary
|
|