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Post by aubrey on Aug 7, 2010 10:54:26 GMT
I don't think that smoking a lot a cannabis is wise, and I don't think you should do it under 18 - like drinking. (I did drink under 18, but not much. I didn't smoke cannabis until I was about 17, I think.)
Drinking a lot of alcohol isn't wise, either. Nor is drinking a lot of coffee, or Coke. (Tea is OK.)
No one - not even prohibitionists - now thinks that cannabis is a gateway drug, except in those cases where it is sold alongside other drugs. I've never wanted to have anything stronger.
But do you think that getting done for possession of Cannabis, or whatever else it is that you took - or even for dealing (if the Police thought you had been taking money from your friends and going to the friendly (huh!) neighbourhood dealer - which is how young people usually get drugs; or if the Police decided that passing on a joint was dealing (as I saw on a bus advert once)) - do you think that that wouldn't have ruined your life? Jacqui Smith would not have been Home Sec if it had happened to her when she had a few smokes in her youth.
The death penalty drags us all - morally - down to the level of the lowest murderer. It is not something that a state should be getting itself involved with.
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Post by mouse on Aug 7, 2010 19:09:09 GMT
its of no consequence...at this moment in time canabis is ilegal unless its a small amount for personal use the law may be an ass..but the law exists untill such time as the law is changed and we would all have been blessed had jacky smith not been home sec..useless woman and a thief to boot...defrauding the tax payer is theft
""""The death penalty drags us all - morally - down to the level of the lowest murderer. It is not something that a state should be getting itself involved with."""" the death penalty is to lenient for some crimes..and it is the states job to be involved with law and punishment...we pay the state to be involved..we pay the state to protect us and remove criminals off the street the death penalty should be brought back and used on the useless wastes of space who demean us all....such as shipman for eg
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Post by o on Aug 7, 2010 21:06:11 GMT
isn't this a bit silly?
beer won't clean a wound either but it certainly causes a lot of wounds on a saturday night.
But of course that's silly too, because people cause injury to other people not beer.
Fortunately (as with ALL drugs) most of the folk who take 'em can handle it - it's just a few (nancy southerners?) that behave like idiots when they've had a few.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Aug 7, 2010 21:47:17 GMT
I like the death penalty. It is the only sure way to remove the worst elements of society from Planet Earth. That's a very good thing to do. We have the DP here in Texas for the worst murderers. Unfortunately it doesn't apply to drug lords, drug smugglers, and major drug dealers.
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Post by firedancer on Aug 7, 2010 21:53:11 GMT
I always think these polarised views are assisted by a cool look at what we really know (and don't know) about cannabis. For those who are interested in a recent (Oct 2009) rational, morally neutral overview of all the research on the health effects of cannabis done in the last 10 years it can be found in The Lancet at: cannabisUnfortunately, if you are not a subscriber you may not be able to access the full paper and it's too long to reproduce here. But I've pasted the summary conclusion below although obviously it does lack some context without the rest of the overview. It is almost certainly the most comprehensive summary of cannabis research findings published to date. The authors are Prof Wayne Hall (School of Population Health, University of Queensland) and Prof Louisa Dagenhardt (National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre, University of New South Wales). My personal view for the record is that I have never used illegal drugs. They hold no attraction for me but if others want to that is up to them. Their health is their own responsibility, though I do think they are selfish bastards when their habits become so intrusive that it impacts on others. Acute adverse effects of cannabis use include anxiety and panic in naive users, and a probable increased risk of accidents if users drive while intoxicated (panel 1). Use during pregnancy could reduce birthweight, but does not seem to cause birth defects. Whether cannabis contributes to behavioural disorders in the offspring of women who smoked cannabis during pregnancy is uncertain. Panel 1 Acute and chronic adverse effects of cannabis use Acute adverse effects Anxiety and panic, especially in naive users Psychotic symptoms (at high doses) Road crashes if a person drives while intoxicated
Chronic adverse effects Cannabis dependence syndrome (in around one in ten users) Chronic bronchitis and impaired respiratory function in regular smokers Psychotic symptoms and disorders in heavy users, especially those with a history of psychotic symptoms or a family history of these disorders Impaired educational attainment in adolescents who are regular users Subtle cognitive impairment in those who are daily users for 10 years or more
Chronic cannabis use can produce a dependence syndrome in as many as one in ten users. Regular users have a higher risk of chronic bronchitis and impaired respiratory function, and psychotic symptoms and disorders, most probably if they have a history of psychotic symptoms or a family history of these disorders. The most probable adverse psychosocial effect in adolescents who become regular users is impaired educational attainment. Adolescent regular cannabis users are more likely to use other illicit drugs, although the explanation of this association remains contested. Regular cannabis use in adolescence might also adversely affect mental health in young adults, with the strongest evidence for an increased risk of psychotic symptoms and disorders.
Some other adverse effects are associated with regular cannabis use (panel 2), but whether they are causal is not known because of the possible confounding effects of other drugs (tobacco for respiratory cancers; tobacco, alcohol, and other drugs for behavioural disorders in children whose mothers smoked cannabis during pregnancy). In the case of depressive disorders and suicide, the association with cannabis is uncertain. For cognitive performance, the size and reversibility of the impairment remain unclear. The focus of epidemiological and clinical research should be on clarifying the causative role of cannabis for these adverse health effects.
Panel 2 Possible adverse effects of regular cannabis use with unknown causal relation Respiratory cancers Behavioural disorders in children whose mothers used cannabis while pregnant Depressive disorders, mania, and suicide Use of other illicit drugs by adolescents
The public health burden of cannabis use is probably modest compared with that of alcohol, tobacco, and other illicit drugs. A recent Australian study96 estimated that cannabis use caused 0·2% of total disease burden in Australia—a country with one of the highest reported rates of cannabis use. Cannabis accounted for 10% of the burden attributable to all illicit drugs (including heroin, cocaine, and amphetamines). It also accounted for around 10% of the proportion of disease burden attributed to alcohol (2·3%), but only 2·5% of that attributable to tobacco (7·8%).
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Aug 7, 2010 22:06:05 GMT
Druggies come up with these arguments because they want to deflect blame from themselves. They are simply in denial that they are a big part of a very big problem.
While I don't believe that Mariljuana is particularly addictive, we do know that Heroin, Cocaine, and Meth are highly addictive. We also know that virtually every one of those druggies addicted to heavy drugs did Marijuana first.
You can argue that Marijuana isn't addictive but it does seem to start one down the wrong path. Bottom line is that I wouldn't want my kids associating with people who do any kind of drugs including Marijuana. That's the wrong crowd.
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Post by pumpkinette on Aug 7, 2010 23:40:38 GMT
Cannabis is a better pain killer than alcohol. It helps you sleep better as well. (Mind you, morphine is even better). Cannabis is a good anti nausea drug as well; and can make food better. And it is a very social drug. And it comes in lots of tastes and strengths. You don't get violent if you smoke too much. You don't die from cannabis poisoning after a (relatively) small amount, like you can with alcohol. (And I like alcohol. Especially whisky.) And why fuel addiction - why condemn addiction? If addiction's so bad, why don't you let addicts have whatever they're addicted to on prescription? Who's side are you on - the addict or the person making money from them? Remember - opium was freely available in England in the 1800s, from chemists, in all kinds of propriety medicines (non-prescription). There was not a big opium problem. That only started when it was made illegal, on the back of racist propaganda about white slavers. Drugs are not evil. They are, if anything, good (ever had anaesthetic?). Our cats love their drugs. IF addiction's so bad... ...this is tragic and an EVIL LIE! You're going to get a BIG EARFUL from me when I have time about HOW BAD MY ABUSE OF ALCOHOL was and the horrible effects it STILL HAS ON MY PHYSICAL HEALTH plus how I hurt my family/friends from it! You're the type that SHOULD GO to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting to FACE what you're lying about, seriously!
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Post by aubrey on Aug 8, 2010 10:28:06 GMT
Pumpkinette - I'm arguing against alcohol here. But even heroin is safe if it is taken properly - in the proper dose, with no adulteration, and with clean needles.
And would you really like to have an operation without drugs?
And, do you think alcohol should be illegal? With the death penalty for people who run off-licences?
BA. No one seriously talks about the marijuana gateway thing any more - not even prohibitionists. What you say is only true in the same way that everyone who drinks meths started on milk.
I've smoked cannabis on and off for 30 years and never wanted heroin - never wanted anything stronger than cannabis, come to that. I know you might want to believe that if you have one toke on a joint, a week later you'll be shooting up and selling your arse down Piccadilly, but it isn't true.
You do know that the war on drugs is just a diversion, don't you? Of course you do. If you can blame all the problems on society on drugs, you can keep cutting Social Security (the Crack Baby thing started at a time of big cuts) and maybe no one will notice.
You'd rather they hung about with frat boys who kill civilians from a helicopter, is that it?
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Post by gabriel on Aug 8, 2010 10:53:54 GMT
Prohibition was in the 20's in the US. This thread has been way off line for a long time. Shouldn't the last 3 or so pages be in a members thread?
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Post by Big Lin on Aug 8, 2010 13:18:56 GMT
Fortunately Lin, the laws are on my side of the argument. The real problem is that we haven't had a real war on drugs. We've had a sort of a namby pamby polite hand slap against drugs. Real wars are shooting affairs. You invade your enemies territory and you shoot your enemies. That's the kind of war on drugs I want to see. That's what the apologists for prohibition said. They were wrong then and they are wrong now. By the way, drug dealers routinely conduct the same kind of shooting war among themselves that you talk about. The funny thing, BA, is that BANNING drugs makes the problem WORSE and ENCOURAGES crime so it's actually a SOFT on crime and PRO-criminal strategy whereas legalising them makes the problem better and discourages crime so it's being TOUGH on crime and ANTI-criminal!
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Post by aubrey on Aug 8, 2010 13:35:12 GMT
Gabriel - we have prohibition of certain drugs now. That was what the OP was about, wasn't it? Why prohibition doesn't work?
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Post by mouse on Aug 8, 2010 18:33:05 GMT
I Their health is their own responsibility, though I do think they are selfish bastards when their habits become so intrusive that it impacts on others. selfish and stupid...and then expect other to help them or save their pathetic little backsides,,
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Post by aubrey on Aug 8, 2010 20:13:05 GMT
Sherlock Holmes is on now (the world's best known drug taker) (Maybe after Queen Victoria). Not watching it (that'll be tomorrow) but I'm off...
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Post by pumpkinette on Aug 8, 2010 20:32:57 GMT
But drugs are fun, great, etc: why do you think people take them? My experience with drugs has been wholly positive. For most people it is. You can't tell these people that their experience is a lie. That is what has always been the problem with various Govts' drug policies. The drugs that are dangerous are dangerous because they are illegal. Heroin, for eg, is quite safe when taken properly, in measured doses and unadulterated. Most deaths are from contamination or accidental overdoses (getting a purer dose than you expected: this is what did for Sid Vicious). Cannabis is not really dangerous (nothing is completely safe). Ecstacy is safer than horse riding. And isn't the crack baby thing largely a myth? They are doomed more because of their circumstances - and being treated as a crack baby - than their mother taking drugs. Pot isn't really dangerous. Really? SMOKING ANYTHNG is VERY dangerous. Lung cancer? Emphysema? Should I go on? I noticed you CONVENIENTLY don't mention how many people smoking has killed. It doesn't matter if it's cigarettes or pot. Plus, you DON'T KNOW what's in it! I only smoked pot twice in my life. The 2nd time I'll never forget. Something had been put in it. 1 of my friends who had a lot more than me hardly knew where she was, what she was doing, etc., after that, for HOURS. Sounds like FUN, doesn't it? What a LIE to put out that it's ALL fun. That was the very last time I touched that filth. What happened to my friend was a great lesson in the end! Yes, I know how drugs feel good. I'll NEVER deny how I felt abusing alcohol. But, please realize it's a LIE. It's an EVIL LIE. It's a distraction from REAL LIFE, which is BEAUTIFUL ON ITS OWN! That's something it took me a lot of years to FULLY learn once I quit drinking. Now I see the beauty everywhere WITHOUT being under any evil influence. I see now also how the alcohol and the FEW other drugs I did are just an evil lie. Actually, I learned that while I was drinking, but it took some time to learn it FULLY. I learned that truly accepting Jesus Christ in your life and living how He told us is the key to REAL joy. The way you feel under alcohol is a LIE. It's a CHEAP imitation of the REAL joy that the true God gives. My life has turned around so much since I got sober. ;D So much bad is gone! However, I DO have the consequences in my body. I have 1 chronic disease DIRECTLY caused by the alcohol abuse. I've worked very hard to get better and yes, that's working, but I still have more work to do. Another chronic disease I have also has alcohol abuse as a direct cause. That condition is hugely better also. I have a fatty liver (which is the 1st stage of liver disease) from it, plus how I wouldn't even acknowledge the eating disorder I have and put on a lot of that weight from the drinking AND overeating. MORE fun! What I don't understand is that my liver FUNCTIONS OK. My doctors don't fully understand it either. However it happened, I'm very thankful. The doctors I've had since I got sober have told me I'd be DEAD if I hadn't quit when I did, OK? I'm not being dramatic here. SOUNDS LIKE FUN, doesn't IT? Do you want to know what it did to my friends/family? I nearly LOST my wonderful fiance because of it. MORE FUN, RIGHT? Relations with my few family members that truly care HUGELY suffered. MORE FUN! I also self-destructed financially during those years. Some of those effects are still with me now. MORE FUN! Can't you see from MY life how evil this stuff is, how it destroys? I'm just 1 example. Go to any Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and you'll hear a lot worse. But, you'll also SEE the beauty of recovery there. You'll see people TRULY living once they're free of that evil poison! I know I can never touch it again. I know this because from my 1st drink it was "all or nothing". I also don't want any part of it because it would be a huge reminder of my HORRIBLE OLD LIFE. I'll have 11 years sober in a few months. These years have been the BEST in my life in many ways. ;D Please realize that using these poisons for "fun" ( : has many costs: mental, emotional, spiritual and physical. Once you GET CLEAN you'll SEE how much they affect you badly, which is 1 of the wonderful things about recovery. OK, have gone on enough on this post. As you can see, I could go on for days on this subject.
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Post by pumpkinette on Aug 8, 2010 20:38:20 GMT
Pumpkinette - I'm arguing against alcohol here. But even heroin is safe if it is taken properly - in the proper dose, with no adulteration, and with clean needles. And would you really like to have an operation without drugs? And, do you think alcohol should be illegal? With the death penalty for people who run off-licences? BA. No one seriously talks about the marijuana gateway thing any more - not even prohibitionists. What you say is only true in the same way that everyone who drinks meths started on milk. I've smoked cannabis on and off for 30 years and never wanted heroin - never wanted anything stronger than cannabis, come to that. I know you might want to believe that if you have one toke on a joint, a week later you'll be shooting up and selling your arse down Piccadilly, but it isn't true. You do know that the war on drugs is just a diversion, don't you? Of course you do. If you can blame all the problems on society on drugs, you can keep cutting Social Security (the Crack Baby thing started at a time of big cuts) and maybe no one will notice. You'd rather they hung about with frat boys who kill civilians from a helicopter, is that it? FYI, I ONLY used evil alcohol for about 20 years, OK? Please read the other post I just made on how it's affected my body, life, etc. I notice you never mention even TRYING to GO WITHOUT. I know how that thinking goes (I remember it with great sadness). You have a mental dependence at the least. I imagine now I'll hear: I can stop it at any time.
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Post by pumpkinette on Aug 8, 2010 20:49:17 GMT
Pumpkinette - I'm arguing against alcohol here. But even heroin is safe if it is taken properly - in the proper dose, with no adulteration, and with clean needles. And would you really like to have an operation without drugs? And, do you think alcohol should be illegal? With the death penalty for people who run off-licences? BA. No one seriously talks about the marijuana gateway thing any more - not even prohibitionists. What you say is only true in the same way that everyone who drinks meths started on milk. I've smoked cannabis on and off for 30 years and never wanted heroin - never wanted anything stronger than cannabis, come to that. I know you might want to believe that if you have one toke on a joint, a week later you'll be shooting up and selling your arse down Piccadilly, but it isn't true. You do know that the war on drugs is just a diversion, don't you? Of course you do. If you can blame all the problems on society on drugs, you can keep cutting Social Security (the Crack Baby thing started at a time of big cuts) and maybe no one will notice. You'd rather they hung about with frat boys who kill civilians from a helicopter, is that it? The ridiculous questions (you want an operation without anesthetic?) won't work with me because I know that kind of thinking really well from my past in addiction HELL. You know as well as I do that some drugs are needed for TRUE health problems. I know this as I have to use medicines for the physical health problems I have DIRECTLY caused by past alcohol abuse, OK? I also have had to use them for post-traumatic stress disorder and panic disorder. Drug use for TRUE health problems isn't evil like using them for "fun". ABUSE of these drugs IS evil. The abuse of prescription drugs is just as evil as the abuse of non-legal drugs and it infuriates me how that doesn't get the attention it SHOULD! Too much attention is given to the JOKE "drug war" in the US. You purposedly don't talk about those who HAVE gotten into more and more drugs that started with pot also. It's no different from those who start out drinking beer and end up on vodka, etc. FYI, I was 1 of them. I don't think alcohol should be illegal. It NEEDS to be regulated due to the evils that happened during Prohibition (wood alcohol, etc.). However, I'll always be against the EVIL LIE how drinking is glamourous, sexy, etc. I USED to REVEL in that when I was abusing it ( ). I then learned it's a bunch of sick lies.
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Post by pumpkinette on Aug 8, 2010 21:02:36 GMT
But drugs are fun, great, etc: why do you think people take them? My experience with drugs has been wholly positive. For most people it is. You can't tell these people that their experience is a lie. That is what has always been the problem with various Govts' drug policies. The drugs that are dangerous are dangerous because they are illegal. Heroin, for eg, is quite safe when taken properly, in measured doses and unadulterated. Most deaths are from contamination or accidental overdoses (getting a purer dose than you expected: this is what did for Sid Vicious). Cannabis is not really dangerous (nothing is completely safe). Ecstacy is safer than horse riding. And isn't the crack baby thing largely a myth? They are doomed more because of their circumstances - and being treated as a crack baby - than their mother taking drugs. Your willful denial is really sad. You LEAVE OUT how those babies are addicts because their mothers CHOSE TO DO THE EVIL DRUGS. They're VICTIMS of the ROTTEN choices of their "mothers". 1 thing I'm glad I DID do right during my drinking years was to NOT get pregnant. 1 of my biggest reasons for that was because I know to raise a child with an alcoholic parent is ABUSE and I wouldn't do it. Unfortunately, it's 1 of the few things I did do right during those years.
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Post by pumpkinette on Aug 8, 2010 21:03:40 GMT
Druggies come up with these arguments because they want to deflect blame from themselves. They are simply in denial that they are a big part of a very big problem. While I don't believe that Mariljuana is particularly addictive, we do know that Heroin, Cocaine, and Meth are highly addictive. We also know that virtually every one of those druggies addicted to heavy drugs did Marijuana first. You can argue that Marijuana isn't addictive but it does seem to start one down the wrong path. Bottom line is that I wouldn't want my kids associating with people who do any kind of drugs including Marijuana. That's the wrong crowd. Pot is PSYCHOLOGICALLY addictive. Plus, smoking anything is horrible for anyone. Lung cancer, emphysema, etc.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Aug 8, 2010 22:47:51 GMT
Fortunately Lin, the laws are on my side of the argument. The real problem is that we haven't had a real war on drugs. We've had a sort of a namby pamby polite hand slap against drugs. Real wars are shooting affairs. You invade your enemies territory and you shoot your enemies. That's the kind of war on drugs I want to see. That's what the apologists for prohibition said. They were wrong then and they are wrong now. By the way, drug dealers routinely conduct the same kind of shooting war among themselves that you talk about. The funny thing, BA, is that BANNING drugs makes the problem WORSE and ENCOURAGES crime so it's actually a SOFT on crime and PRO-criminal strategy whereas legalising them makes the problem better and discourages crime so it's being TOUGH on crime and ANTI-criminal! Lin - I hope you know that I have a very high opinion of you and think you are more often right than wrong on the issues. But this is where we part company. I want a drug free world. That's non-negotiable with regard to cocaine, heroin, and meth.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Aug 9, 2010 17:13:10 GMT
Druggies come up with these arguments because they want to deflect blame from themselves. They are simply in denial that they are a big part of a very big problem. While I don't believe that Mariljuana is particularly addictive, we do know that Heroin, Cocaine, and Meth are highly addictive. We also know that virtually every one of those druggies addicted to heavy drugs did Marijuana first. You can argue that Marijuana isn't addictive but it does seem to start one down the wrong path. Bottom line is that I wouldn't want my kids associating with people who do any kind of drugs including Marijuana. That's the wrong crowd. I agree that marijuana isn't particularly addictive, but nicotine is! Almost everyone i knew with a drug problem started with a cigarette addiction!
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