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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 29, 2010 8:42:14 GMT
I'm sure there are lots of people whose private opinions and bigotry would disqualify them from their professions if they spoke openly about them; certainly our good friend the child protection social worker who regularly describes the families he works with as 'scum' who should be sterilised is one of them! But he makes these remarks in private. which raises several points does this make him unfit for his job is he able to carry out his work unbiasedly does this make him a hypocrite i know a housing officer who wouldnt give half the people who come to her a cardboard box... but as long as they tick the right boxes and prate the mantra of the day every thing on the surface is wonderful and as long as they dont rock the boat they will not have to be shown """"the error of their ways""" do we have to encourage this hypocracy of saying one thing in public and another in private what is wrong with anyone actually being honest and saying i have a different veiw ...having a different take on things should not be an excuse for others to conduct a wich hunt as long as those with veiws are not activly hurting or suporting hurting anyone and who is the absolute authority on ERROR thinking """she went through a “remediation” program so that she could “see the error of her ways” and change her belief system about homosexuality""". It's hardly hypocrisy. I don't know a single person who doesn't whine sometimes about their work, about how they think they know better than their managers how to do their job, etc. etc. That's human. But ultimately we do and behave as we are told at work because that's sort of what work is. It's not a soap box for us to spout our own personal views. We agree to carry out a certain job and be under direction for it for a certain sum of money. The workplace is not the right forum for spouting off your personal views.
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Post by mouse on Jul 29, 2010 9:29:31 GMT
[quote author=mouse board=ethics thread=1685 post=28863 time=1280390876oh i agree the work place is not the place to be spouting off personal veiws....but isnt that mindset exactly what gets us into the """i was only doing my job"""situation too follow directions blindly can lead to employing sheep am not sure on this issue at all..bit of a quandry
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Post by mouse on Jul 29, 2010 9:33:55 GMT
i would say to do and say some thing for apearences sake whilst believing some thing else is deffinitely hypocracy we roast politos for this
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2010 9:38:23 GMT
I agree with all that, Riot. A lot of people manage not to let their personal views influence their work; indeed a degree of detachment is often essential. I've heard it said that the worst social workers are those who feel passionately about their clients, because they get too involved.
When I went on a course for my volunteer advice training, we were told that we had to endorse the views of the organisation we were working for. It was presented in a way that made us feel that unless we shared those views we couldn't do the job. I took an instant dislike to the tutor and decided that she wasn't going to dictate to me how I felt about things. She almost turned me into a racist for the duration of the course. I know a few others were unhappy about her attitude as well, although I do admit that she was in other respects an excellent trainer. Happily, the manager of the centre where I work took a more robust view and said that she didn't care what we thought so long as it didn't affect our work.
So I feel uncomfortable abut the idea that this young woman is apparently being asked to change her belief system. Is this really necessary to enable her do the job properly? If not, then allow her to work out a solution that doesn't compromise the standards expected of a counsellor. Only if that can't be done should she be sacked.
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Post by mouse on Jul 29, 2010 9:50:47 GMT
spot on
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Post by mouse on Jul 29, 2010 10:37:30 GMT
I agree with all that, Riot. A lot of people manage not to let their personal views influence their work; indeed a degree of detachment is often essential. I've heard it said that the worst social workers are those who feel passionately about their clients, because they get too involved. . exactly a proffestional aproach is unemotional and detached with no personal input yet allowing caring about what they are doing...it has to be in many proffesions or surgeons,,doctors..nurses teachers..social workers etc simply couldnt carry out their duties properly.. and a small by the by...the black humour in medical/social and police services etc are part of what helps those in those services cope
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 29, 2010 14:04:25 GMT
I agree that Miss Keeton shouldn't face job discrimination because of her views! Any "gay", who feels threatened by her religious views is truly insecure or bigoted and should admit it!
Anna, you are talking about a counselor, not a dinner lady. Suppose a teenage girl had just found out she was pregnant and sought her out for support, only to be given a lecture about the evils of sex outside marriage? From the rest of your post, it sounds as if every schoolchild has a counsellor; something that doesn't happen (to the best of my knowledge) in the UK. So the job is a bit of a mystery to me; what exactly does a counselor do? The counselors in the high school i attended were primarily responsible for helping us find an occupational career. I wasn't aware of anyone being counseled for problematic love affairs, etc..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2010 14:59:17 GMT
Ah...thanks Anna. We used to call them "careers advisers"- though we never had any in my schl! I was thinking that they were there to deal with personal problems.
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Post by Synonym on Jul 29, 2010 15:02:40 GMT
Not only that, Octopus, but what if, part way through counselling, a student confides that they think they may be gay. Does their response depend on whether their counsellor does or does not believe that homosexuality is a matter of choice? But even a completely 'on message' counselor might find situations that require them to pass the child onto other professionals? Such a revelation might be an example of this, for some councillors. Of course even if she was employed to only cover a limited set of circumstances and problems, it does not mean that she has to be allowed to express her views to the client. At most she would be allowed to pass the client on without personal comment.
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Post by randomvioce on Jul 29, 2010 15:23:40 GMT
Militant christians have no place in decent society. If they are unable to keep their bigotted opinions to themselves then they are not up to the job and should be sacked. I cannot see what the fuss is about. This woman's warped belief system renders her unfit for the 21st Century that the people she would be expected to interact with inhabit.
Is she disaproves of homesexuality, fine, don't do it. If you want to tell other people that it is wrong, go to church. Keep your opinions to yourself and everything would be fine, but no little miss 'holier than thou' went about blabbling that homosexuals are wrong and complains that she got sacked, so what?
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Post by randomvioce on Jul 29, 2010 15:27:38 GMT
The counselors in the high school i attended were primarily responsible for helping us find an occupational career. I wasn't aware of anyone being counseled for problematic love affairs, etc.. Then surely that is what she should stick to? If she blurts out anti human statements, what can she expect? Why not stick to careers advice? Why mention homosexualitity?
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jul 29, 2010 17:32:56 GMT
Curiosity question: How can we have freedom of speech if we're punished for what we say?
In Iran you might have a Fatwa issued calling for your death should you express the opinion that Mohammed was a dirtbag and Allah is a false god.
in Western countries you can say that (or whatever else) whenever and wherever you like without fear of the thought police coming after you.
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Post by randomvioce on Jul 29, 2010 17:44:18 GMT
Curiosity question: How can we have freedom of speech if we're punished for what we say? So? What is the problem? She had free speech and she used her free speech to rule her out of a job? Millions of people tell their manager to piss off and lose their job, so free speech is not an issue there is it?
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 29, 2010 17:46:04 GMT
Curiosity question: How can we have freedom of speech if we're punished for what we say? In Iran you might have a Fatwa issued calling for your death should you express the opinion that Mohammed was a dirtbag and Allah is a false god. in Western countries you can say that (or whatever else) whenever and wherever you like without fear of the thought police coming after you. Of course we have freedom of speech. But when we contract with an employer part of that contract is implicitly that, for example, we will support the company in public, etc. Professionalism obviously restricts freedom of speech. Imagine doctors, police, social workers, etc. exercised their freedom of speech in professional situations! We all know what they think about some of their 'clients', but professionalism means that they keep their views to themselves.
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 29, 2010 17:51:14 GMT
Curiosity question: How can we have freedom of speech if we're punished for what we say? So? What is the problem? She had free speech and she used her free speech to rule her out of a job? Millions of people tell their manager to piss off and lose their job, so free speech is not an issue there is it? Her problem is the problem with all fundamentalist religious types - they believe that their beliefs should preval over everyone else's.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2010 18:21:47 GMT
The counselors in the high school i attended were primarily responsible for helping us find an occupational career. I wasn't aware of anyone being counseled for problematic love affairs, etc.. Then surely that is what she should stick to? If she blurts out anti human statements, what can she expect? Why not stick to careers advice? Why mention homosexualitity? Possibly it was not she who brought the topic up, Random Voice! If dealing with homosexual students is part of the training, it might perhaps seem right that she expressed her own discomfort with the "normal" approach. If the differences of opinion cannot be conciled, however, she should do the honorable thing and find another career for herself.
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Post by randomvioce on Jul 29, 2010 18:50:22 GMT
Possibly it was not she who brought the topic up, Random Voice! According to the OP: but simply because she has communicated both inside and outside the classroom that she holds to Christian ethical convictions on matters of human sexuality and gender identity," the 43-page lawsuit reads.In other words she brought up her objections therefore she put the matter up for question. Either she lears to keep her opinions to herself or she gets another job where here views are acceptable. What is the problem?
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Post by fretslider on Jul 29, 2010 19:33:44 GMT
Possibly it was not she who brought the topic up, Random Voice! According to the OP: but simply because she has communicated both inside and outside the classroom that she holds to Christian ethical convictions on matters of human sexuality and gender identity," the 43-page lawsuit reads.In other words she brought up her objections therefore she put the matter up for question. Either she lears to keep her opinions to herself or she gets another job where here views are acceptable. What is the problem? Religion, don'tcha just lurv it Fruitcakes.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2010 19:35:04 GMT
I don't see how that can lead you to assume that she put up the matter for question". It is quite possible that some other student, or maybe the lecturer, kept raising the subject.
When I was studying family law, a fellow female student kept doing this to a Sikh guy who held similar views to this woman; she kept baiting him about it at almost every opportunity.
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Post by june on Jul 29, 2010 19:56:25 GMT
According to the OP: but simply because she has communicated both inside and outside the classroom that she holds to Christian ethical convictions on matters of human sexuality and gender identity," the 43-page lawsuit reads.In other words she brought up her objections therefore she put the matter up for question. Either she lears to keep her opinions to herself or she gets another job where here views are acceptable. What is the problem? Religion, don'tcha just lurv it Fruitcakes. ;D ;D ;D
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