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Post by Synonym on Jul 29, 2010 20:18:43 GMT
Her problem is the problem with all fundamentalist religious types - they believe that their beliefs should preval over everyone else's. People like her have to be made to toe the party line. Only kidding
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Post by fretslider on Jul 29, 2010 20:39:37 GMT
Religion, don'tcha just lurv it Fruitcakes. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 29, 2010 20:58:12 GMT
Her problem is the problem with all fundamentalist religious types - they believe that their beliefs should preval over everyone else's. People like her have to be made to toe the party line. Only kidding Naw, I can sort of see your argument. But on the other hand, a world where nobody was allowed to be denied a job on account of their views would not work. You could not have an outspoken anti-semite working in your business, say. Other people would refuse to do business with you. Your business would suffer. So, of course, you are not forced to hire someone who is outspokenly anti-semitic. There is a 'line to take', but it's not a party line set by the state. It's the norms that our society have chosen to establish, and while people are entitled to free speech, nobody is forced to ignore it.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 30, 2010 5:10:18 GMT
This thread is about 2 students who are being persecuted for not denying their views about homosexuality! Julea Ward is the other student, who was already expelled! I posted her YouTube video earlier on this thread!
I don't have the impression that either of these students are "high profile" with their beliefs! I imagine that the PC police in the universities are routinely asking students in the counseling field about their beliefs and convictions. Since Jennifer Keeton and Julea Ward didn't conceal or lie about their beliefs they were persecuted! These two students certainly don't hate homosexuals!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2010 6:45:27 GMT
They may not hate homosexuals and they may not be expressing their views unless asked, but having re-read the opening post and listened to Ward I can understand why the college might feel they can't just ignore them.
Ward in her video seems to be saying that when asked to counsel a homosexual student she said she would not affirm his homosexuality. It was proper for her to raise her views at that point and it may be that the young person could - as Octopus suggested - be referred to someone else; I don't know.
"Keeton's lawsuit alleges that the university's remediation plan noted Keeton's "disagreement in several class discussions and in written assignments with the gay and lesbian 'lifestyle,'" as well as Keeton's belief that those "lifestyles" are cases of identity confusion.
So if a person she knows to have a "homosexual lifestyle" is having problems apparently unrelated to this - perhaps difficulties with a work task or workmates - is it possible that she will deduce that it is because of "identity confusion"?
I'm not a counsellor, have no wish to be a counsellor and try to avoid being counselled, but even I can appreciate that such views might, just might, cause legitimate concern.
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 30, 2010 7:15:27 GMT
Anna, where do you get this crap from?
A Youtube video titled 'Renounce Christ or get out' . . what utter drivel. The silly girl has in no way been told to renounce Christ.
Do you swallow every piece of fundamentalist Christian propaganda you come across?
Imagine the girl was a Muslim whose views were that all women should wear burkas? I doubt you'd be defending her rights then.
Or a racist who also insisted on his right to 'share' (her word) his beilefs?
She wants to SHARE her beliefs, not hold them privately. She makes that clear. And her cause has been taken up by one of those American nutjob religious organisations.
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Post by mouse on Jul 30, 2010 8:28:41 GMT
Imagine the girl was a Muslim whose views were that all women should wear burkas? I doubt you'd be defending her rights then. Or a racist who also insisted on his right to 'share' (her word) his beilefs well i would defend their rights to have their own opinion 100% i suport the right of the odious hamza to have his opinon what i disagree with with is not him having an opion and verbalising it but the fact of having to keep him and his family and allowing him to live in our country while he does so other than that he is free to believe in what ever and to say so one either belives in freedom of speech or one does not
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 30, 2010 8:56:20 GMT
Imagine the girl was a Muslim whose views were that all women should wear burkas? I doubt you'd be defending her rights then. Or a racist who also insisted on his right to 'share' (her word) his beilefs well i would defend their rights to have their own opinion 100% i suport the right of the odious hamza to have his opinon what i disagree with with is not him having an opion and verbalising it but the fact of having to keep him and his family and allowing him to live in our country while he does so other than that he is free to believe in what ever and to say so one either belives in freedom of speech or one does not So you disagree with the points Housesparrow, Random Voice and I have made earlier about how your right to speak your mind is one that it is reasonable for you not to exercise in a professional situation?
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Post by randomvioce on Jul 30, 2010 10:50:12 GMT
. Since Jennifer Keeton and Julea Ward didn't conceal or lie about their beliefs they were persecuted! The word you are looking for is not 'persecuted' but sacked. These two nutcases expressed views that made them unable to do the job to the standards their bosses demand and they are gone! Really, that is the begining, middle and end of the Story, but for some people who follow a backward cult they demand victimhood status at every turn. Why? Why is it that the religous nutcases that they feel the need to impose their beliefs on the rest of us? Why don't you people get a life and leave the rest of us alone?
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Post by fretslider on Jul 30, 2010 11:07:59 GMT
. Since Jennifer Keeton and Julea Ward didn't conceal or lie about their beliefs they were persecuted! The word you are looking for is not 'persecuted' but sacked. These two nutcases expressed views that made them unable to do the job to the standards their bosses demand and they are gone! Really, that is the begining, middle and end of the Story, but for some people who follow a backward cult they demand victimhood status at every turn. Why? Why is it that the religous nutcases that they feel the need to impose their beliefs on the rest of us? Why don't you people get a life and leave the rest of us alone? Yes, why don't they (all faiths) get a life and let us be, RV??? Pity the poor councillors in Tower Hamlets.
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 30, 2010 12:08:15 GMT
Here's another take on the story. If you go to the link it has live links to the relevant documents about what job a counsellor is actually expected to do and what professional standards they have to sign up to . . it's a little different from the lies Anna has told us about them being some kind of glorified Careers Guidance teacher. Jennifer Keeton Sues University for Right to Hate Gays Posted by Jeanne Sager on July 28, 2010 at 10:21 AM Comments (21)| Likes (6) .Jennifer Keeton wants to be a school counselor. But she doesn't want to work with gay people unless she can convert them.
And now she's suing for the right to be let loose into the world as a renegade social worker rescuing those gays.
Of course that's not how this Christian student at Augusta State University describes her fight.
In court documents secured by ABC, Keeton says her "constitutional rights of speech, belief, and religious exercise" have been violated by the "ideologically heavyhanded impositions of representatives of Augusta State University (ASU)."
The problem? The school won't let her graduate from the College of Education’s School Counselor master's degree program until she submits to sensitivity training on tolerance of LGBT individuals.
So what's the problem here?
Keeton does indeed have a right to disagree with gays. Or be a homophobe (tomayto, tomahto).
Everyone does.
Just as the school has a right to determine someone doesn't meet the criteria for graduation for a particular degree.
Imagine expecting a school to grant you a master's degree as a nurse practitioner if you are still refusing to stick a needle in someone's arm because you don't like blood.
In the case of a school counselor, the American School Counselor Association describes their need to serve all students:
"Professional school counselors identify a philosophy based on school counseling theory and research/evidence-based practice that recognizes the need for all students to benefit from the school counseling program."
Note the word "all."
The federal government's rules for school counseling programs also call for administrators to "describe how any diverse cultural populations, if applicable, would be served through the program."
It's up to a college to set up the criteria for a degree and for students to investigate those criteria before they enter. In Keeton's case, she could have chosen a different career or a different program for social work, thereby protecting her rights to "speech, belief, and religious exercise."thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_news/107209/jennifer_keeton_sues_university_for
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 30, 2010 12:10:24 GMT
I found this comment on the story on another blog page; I think the poster hits the nail on the head really.
These are not the views of God, these are the views of a bigot.
I think the university should simply ask her for proof that Jesus condemned homosexuality. Or ask her to cite one book of the bible that condemns homosexuality and does not also condemn eating shellfish...
The truth is that her opinions are not from God, they are her own ingrained prejudices that she attributes to God. Christianity is not an anti-gay religion! That is a red herring that Fox news would like you to believe! Only a few denominations remain anti-gay, the way that some are still racist.
I think it's good for the university to screen those who earn degrees, and carefully consider whether this individual is fit to hold professional qualifications in a social services field, when she holds such clearly bigoted views.
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 30, 2010 12:13:18 GMT
And, regardless of Anna's sense that somehow this girl had been modest about her views, in fact the whole issue has been blown up because she has been so vocal about her bigotry.
This is what she wrote in an e-mail to to Augusta State officials, "[Y]ou are requiring me to alter my objective beliefs and also to commit now that if I ever may have a client who wants me to affirm their decision to have an abortion or engage in gay, lesbian, or transgender behavior, I will do that.
"I can't alter my biblical beliefs, and I will not affirm the morality of those behaviors in a counseling situation."
Augusta State officials have said Keeton's conduct violates the code of ethics to which counselors and counselors in training are required to adhere, including those of the American Counseling Association and the American School Counselor Association, according to The Washington Times.
In short, Anna has dug up this story . . . or more likely had it brought to her attention by one of the nutty right-wing religious groups and posted it asking us to believe it's about this girl's right to freedom of speech.
When, in fact, a bit of investigation shows that the girl has been outspoken and vocal, has told the University authorities that she will not abide by the code of ethics for the job she wants to do, and is now snivelling about her right to free speech.
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Post by mouse on Jul 30, 2010 12:51:03 GMT
well i would defend their rights to have their own opinion 100% i suport the right of the odious hamza to have his opinon what i disagree with with is not him having an opion and verbalising it but the fact of having to keep him and his family and allowing him to live in our country while he does so other than that he is free to believe in what ever and to say so one either belives in freedom of speech or one does not So you disagree with the points Housesparrow, Random Voice and I have made earlier about how your right to speak your mind is one that it is reasonable for you not to exercise in a professional situation? i dont know who housesparrow is but what ever opinion one holds..proffesionalism should over come when dealing with any given situation in a work/employment situation at the same time no one has the absolute right to sack/refuse employment/ what ever opinion you hold.. i lose patience with those who refuse to sell alcohol in super markets or the day after pill just as i would lose patience with this woman if she were to allow her opinions to prevent her doing her job as a school councilor but untill the day comes when she isnt fullfiling her emplyment criteria she should be allowed to train etc etc and yes its hyporcritical to think one way and act another...so i dont see why they go for these jobs which put them in conflict in the first place but it is wrong to expect every one to bow to the mantra of the day
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 30, 2010 12:53:09 GMT
Sorry, Housesparrow is Skylark. I'm confusing things by calling her by a handle she uses elsewhere.
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Post by mouse on Jul 30, 2010 13:08:48 GMT
Sorry, Housesparrow is Skylark. I'm confusing things by calling her by a handle she uses elsewhere. oh right...kittiwake ;D
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 30, 2010 14:50:58 GMT
So, having spent a wee while exploring this story today, here are some of the facts as opposed to the rubbish that Anna pumps out from the christian fundamentalists:
1 - The girl, by her own admission in the court papers, has been very vocally speaking out at Uni about how the only appropriate way to deal with homosexuality is to seek to 'cure' it.
2 - The ethics of the profession she is studying for (counselling) are to be non-judgemental. Counsellors have to be aware of their own prejudices, but have to ensure that they don't bring them with them into the professional situation.
3 - Counselling (the job she wants to do) is as we would understand it in the UK, and is not just careers guidance despite Anna trying to pretend it was.
4 - She is not being expelled from the college or anything like it. Rather, as per the rules set out in the handbook for the course she's on, she has been told to do some work on her awareness of homosexuality and reflect on it to her tutors. She has most defifnitely not been told she must attend Gay Pride; rather it has been suggested to her as something she could go and see and then reflect on as part of this awareness work. This is not something invented for this girl; it's in the course book as how the course deals with people who seem to be unable to separate their personal views from their professional practice.
Sadly she's part of that fundamentalist Christian squealing-little-piggy tendency who runs to the courts to scream about their rights to free speech and how Christians are persecuted by 'liberals' at the drop of a hat.
So, in short (and reflecting on the title of this thread)
She does NOT ace expulsion on account of her views. (In fact and of course, nobody is even asking her to change her views; just to increase her awareness and adhere to her professional ethics code.)
Indeed, characterising this story by that thread title is a work that Goebbels would have been proud of.
Please Anna, give us a break. We're not stupid.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 30, 2010 15:49:54 GMT
Anna, where do you get this crap from? A Youtube video titled 'Renounce Christ or get out' . . what utter drivel. The silly girl has in no way been told to renounce Christ. Do you swallow every piece of fundamentalist Christian propaganda you come across? Imagine the girl was a Muslim whose views were that all women should wear burkas? I doubt you'd be defending her rights then. Or a racist who also insisted on his right to 'share' (her word) his beilefs? She wants to SHARE her beliefs, not hold them privately. She makes that clear. And her cause has been taken up by one of those American nutjob religious organisations. Dearest Riotgrrl! I can't choose the titles of the YouTube videos! It's true Christ never mentioned homosexuality in the Bible. Homosexuals should however just get used to fact that if they ask for an honest opinion about their life style it won't always be positive.
Why should people have to lie to avoid persecution?
As for burkas or nudity for that matter..that's the subject of a different thread!
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 30, 2010 15:59:58 GMT
Anna, where do you get this crap from? A Youtube video titled 'Renounce Christ or get out' . . what utter drivel. The silly girl has in no way been told to renounce Christ. Do you swallow every piece of fundamentalist Christian propaganda you come across? Imagine the girl was a Muslim whose views were that all women should wear burkas? I doubt you'd be defending her rights then. Or a racist who also insisted on his right to 'share' (her word) his beilefs? She wants to SHARE her beliefs, not hold them privately. She makes that clear. And her cause has been taken up by one of those American nutjob religious organisations. Dearest Riotgrrl! I can't choose the titles of the YouTube videos! It's true Christ never mentioned homosexuality in the Bible. Homosexuals should however just get used to fact that if they ask for an honest opinion about their life style it won't always be positive.
Why should people have to lie to avoid persecution?
As for burkas or nudity for that matter..that's the subject of a different thread!You chose the title of this thread, and the title you chose was a lie. You lied that a school counsellor was like a Careers Guidance thing. And you fail to understand that seeking counselling is NOT seeking someone's personal opinion.
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Post by june on Jul 30, 2010 16:04:39 GMT
The point is she is not being persecuted. She appears a bigot and a liar. Great qualities for a counsellor!
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