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Post by o on Jul 3, 2010 15:01:34 GMT
And the fish?
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Post by mouse on Jul 3, 2010 18:53:25 GMT
catching fish simply to let them die and throw the bodies back into the sea...because of quotas and types of fish pathetic... when it comes to fruit and veg their is NO regular size...there is a percieved idea of shape and size..pounced on by brussels
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Post by mouse on Jul 3, 2010 18:57:34 GMT
with regards to the rip off merchant trying to sell undersized fruit at regular sized prices - good! he was attempting to rip people off, he wasn't selling 'undersized fruit at a knock down price - which is perfectly OK and legal - he was trying to sell them as grade 2 sized fruit at grade 2 prices! The problem as always is not the EU but the fervour with which some pompous upstart (British) imposes the rules. No other EU state follows rules they see as silly, but, then again it gives the daily mail plenty to froth at the mouth about. gosh had forgotton its the mails fault..every thing is the mails fault no matter which organisation or paper prints information.....its always the mail making it up .. the gov want to limmit immigration...i supose thats the mails fault..along with the economic crisis all hype by the mail of course yeah right ..tiddlypom
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Post by june on Jul 3, 2010 20:19:36 GMT
with regards to the rip off merchant trying to sell undersized fruit at regular sized prices - good! he was attempting to rip people off, he wasn't selling 'undersized fruit at a knock down price - which is perfectly OK and legal - he was trying to sell them as grade 2 sized fruit at grade 2 prices! The problem as always is not the EU but the fervour with which some pompous upstart (British) imposes the rules. No other EU state follows rules they see as silly, but, then again it gives the daily mail plenty to froth at the mouth about. gosh had forgotton its the mails fault..every thing is the mails fault no matter which organisation or paper prints information.....its always the mail making it up .. the gov want to limmit immigration...i supose thats the mails fault..along with the economic crisis all hype by the mail of course yeah right ..tiddlypom Oh Mouse read the post - I said it gave them stuff to froth about - I didn't say it was their fault
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Post by fretslider on Jul 3, 2010 23:10:42 GMT
gosh had forgotton its the mails fault..every thing is the mails fault no matter which organisation or paper prints information.....its always the mail making it up .. the gov want to limmit immigration...i supose thats the mails fault..along with the economic crisis all hype by the mail of course yeah right ..tiddlypom Oh Mouse read the post - I said it gave them stuff to froth about - I didn't say it was their fault The Daily Fail? Why would anyone read that? "EU chiefs ban trader's 5,000 kiwis for being 1mm to small - By Richard Smith 27/06/2008 "The ban follows a string of controversial EU rulings preventing the sale of produce that looks less than perfect. Laws have axed curved cucumbers, straight bananas and knobbly veg." The Daily Mirror
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Post by june on Jul 3, 2010 23:34:53 GMT
Oh Mouse read the post - I said it gave them stuff to froth about - I didn't say it was their fault The Daily Fail? Why would anyone read that? "EU chiefs ban trader's 5,000 kiwis for being 1mm to small - By Richard Smith 27/06/2008 "The ban follows a string of controversial EU rulings preventing the sale of produce that looks less than perfect. Laws have axed curved cucumbers, straight bananas and knobbly veg." The Daily MirrorEh? As my post clearly indicated - I don't doubt the 'validity' of the ruling over what criteria makes a grade 2 kiwi. But without the anti euro spin this story reads as - dodgy veg seller is pissed off because he is caught charging premium prices for sub standard product and decides to blame Europe rather than say 'it's a fair cop guv I am a shifty beggar and no mistake'. So are you rabid euro haters saying that you would rather be sold any old toot at top prices, maybe you are but I don't have money to burn. I want assurance that when I pay 50 a gram for best quality that is what I am getting. Just as when I pay 20p for 'non standard stuff' I know what I am getting too!
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Post by fretslider on Jul 4, 2010 11:11:58 GMT
Oh dear, June, oh dear, oh dear. Can you not see the bigger picture?
You think I'm a rabid Euro hater?
Clearly you have never read my posts on the EU.
The age of the nation state is drawing to a close and there can be no going back. We all need the EU for the collective clout it gives us in an increasingly smaller world.
But it needs major reform, reform that the 'member-states' are not yet ready to countenance.
Not to labour the point, micro-management is not what the EU should be about, it only puts peoples' backs up and sets back progress for a generation.
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Post by randomvioce on Jul 4, 2010 16:11:28 GMT
Right of petition at the standard 5% or this joke? I think it is a joke, to be honest. I think we will have debates and possibly referenda on trival subjects. You don't need to go far to find people who will sign anything, that is true on the street but esp true on the internet.
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Post by june on Jul 4, 2010 16:23:41 GMT
Oh dear, June, oh dear, oh dear. Can you not see the bigger picture? You think I'm a rabid Euro hater? Clearly you have never read my posts on the EU. The age of the nation state is drawing to a close and there can be no going back. We all need the EU for the collective clout it gives us in an increasingly smaller world. But it needs major reform, reform that the 'member-states' are not yet ready to countenance. Not to labour the point, micro-management is not what the EU should be about, it only puts peoples' backs up and sets back progress for a generation. your assumption that I cannot see a bigger picture is lost on me. I see the bigger picture, what I don't agree, is your point.
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Post by fretslider on Jul 4, 2010 18:20:08 GMT
Oh dear, June, oh dear, oh dear. Can you not see the bigger picture? You think I'm a rabid Euro hater? Clearly you have never read my posts on the EU. The age of the nation state is drawing to a close and there can be no going back. We all need the EU for the collective clout it gives us in an increasingly smaller world. But it needs major reform, reform that the 'member-states' are not yet ready to countenance. Not to labour the point, micro-management is not what the EU should be about, it only puts peoples' backs up and sets back progress for a generation. your assumption that I cannot see a bigger picture is lost on me. I see the bigger picture, what I don't agree, is your point. Would you care to expand on that, why do you disagree?
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Post by fretslider on Jul 4, 2010 18:23:07 GMT
Right of petition at the standard 5% or this joke? I think it is a joke, to be honest. I think we will have debates and possibly referenda on trival subjects. You don't need to go far to find people who will sign anything, that is true on the street but esp true on the internet. Perhaps you haven't twigged what 5% amounts to. 5% of the electorate is quite a tidy number. That only provides for a vote, it doesn't guarantee a result.
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Post by randomvioce on Jul 4, 2010 18:33:34 GMT
That only provides for a vote, it doesn't guarantee a result. I wonder, though fretty. If I remember your position correctly, (I hope I have miss-understood) you are suggesting that we have a referendum (costing millions of pounds) on any subject triggered by a 5% of the vote. If so, given that you never have to walk far to find a halfwit in this Country, we will be having refernda on everything from sacking Cappello to re-opening the Princess Diana case and everything in between. Rupert Murchock will be calling for votes on everything up to public hangings for people who missed penalties.
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Post by fretslider on Jul 4, 2010 19:00:33 GMT
That only provides for a vote, it doesn't guarantee a result. I wonder, though fretty. If I remember your position correctly, (I hope I have miss-understood) you are suggesting that we have a referendum (costing millions of pounds) on any subject triggered by a 5% of the vote. If so, given that you never have to walk far to find a halfwit in this Country, we will be having refernda on everything from sacking Cappello to re-opening the Princess Diana case and everything in between. Rupert Murchock will be calling for votes on everything up to public hangings for people who missed penalties. Well, you're getting there, RV, sort of. A petition would require the signatures of 5% - this could be for a constituency in the case of recalling an MP, or of the electorate as a whole in the case of amending or removing legislation or recalling a parliament. Now I know that you wax lyrical about democracy, yet recoil when confronted with it, but you should not fall into the trap of judging everybody else by your own standards. In all of the countries where this right exists it has yet to be abused. Its a good job they don't all think like you.
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 4, 2010 19:05:21 GMT
I wonder, though fretty. If I remember your position correctly, (I hope I have miss-understood) you are suggesting that we have a referendum (costing millions of pounds) on any subject triggered by a 5% of the vote. If so, given that you never have to walk far to find a halfwit in this Country, we will be having refernda on everything from sacking Cappello to re-opening the Princess Diana case and everything in between. Rupert Murchock will be calling for votes on everything up to public hangings for people who missed penalties. Well, you're getting there, RV, sort of. A petition would require the signatures of 5% - this could be for a constituency in the case of recalling an MP, or of the electorate as a whole in the case of amending or removing legislation or recalling a parliament. Now I know that you wax lyrical about democracy, yet recoil when confronted with it, but you should not fall into the trap of judging everybody else by your own standards. In all of the countries where this right exists it has yet to be abused. Its a good job they don't all think like you. 5% is not democracy. 51% is. (Democracy being the tyranny of the majority, etc.)
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Post by fretslider on Jul 4, 2010 19:26:18 GMT
Well, you're getting there, RV, sort of. A petition would require the signatures of 5% - this could be for a constituency in the case of recalling an MP, or of the electorate as a whole in the case of amending or removing legislation or recalling a parliament. Now I know that you wax lyrical about democracy, yet recoil when confronted with it, but you should not fall into the trap of judging everybody else by your own standards. In all of the countries where this right exists it has yet to be abused. Its a good job they don't all think like you. 5% is not democracy. 51% is. (Democracy being the tyranny of the majority, etc.) Doh. 5% merely triggers a plebiscite, it doesn't change anything by itself. Do try to keep up at the back.
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 4, 2010 19:29:34 GMT
5% is not democracy. 51% is. (Democracy being the tyranny of the majority, etc.) Doh. 5% merely triggers a plebiscite, it doesn't change anything by itself. Do try to keep up at the back. Nah, I've been convinced by the point made already on this thread, that the admin necessary and costs involved in triggering a plebiscite is going to be quite huge, so 5% is really too small an amount to trigger it. I agree with the principle, but not at 5%. 51% is too much, of course, I was being a bit sarcastic. But maybe 30%? That's a reasonably sized minority to suggest that the people triggering the plebiscite might have a point which deserved to be heard. 5% gives hassle-power to a lunatically small minority.
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Post by randomvioce on Jul 4, 2010 19:46:16 GMT
A petition would require the signatures of 5% - this could be for a constituency in the case of recalling an MP, or of the electorate as a whole in the case of amending or removing legislation or recalling a parliament. We will have permanent 5%(s) of the population on constant alert ready to vote for a recall. Most of our constituencies are two or three horse races with slim majorities. We wuld be having votes every week, fretty. After every budget, we would have smokers voting to repeal the tax on fags andor/booze, VAT. Now I know that you wax lyrical about democracy, yet recoil when confronted with it, . I have nothing against democracy, fretty, I have a huge problem with mob rule though. It cannot be right to draw up or scrap laws without accountability. Let us say (for example) we have a vote to scrap speed limits and the following week ten thousand extra deaths occur? Who is accountable for that? The people who voted for it on the internet? Really? Your partner dies and the Minister for transport was 'only following orders'? Nah, whatever that is, it is not democracy by any measure I can see. We draw up laws based on objective evidence and expert opinion, not tabloid nonsense. We are in the process of bending to tabliods at the moment and seriously (and terminally) ill people are denied benefits as a result. I have heard of cases with people who are expected to work when they are barely functioning as human beings. Democracy is not sending dying people to the poor house, fretty.
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Post by fretslider on Jul 4, 2010 20:01:44 GMT
Really RV, so why are you afraid of a democratic vote, one that will require >50%. You say you are for it and then argue against it.
The speed limit scenario is ludicrous, have you not been to Germany?
The internet is a red herring, you need signatures.
"We draw up laws based on objective evidence and expert opinion" Now that is total bollox, and you know it.
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Post by randomvioce on Jul 4, 2010 20:21:05 GMT
Really RV, so why are you afraid of a democratic vote, one that will require >50%. You say you are for it and then argue against it. Because you cannot write laws in that fashion. Just because we have a few halfwits in this Country that believe that the birch would cut crime, does not make it so, does it? But if we can get the thickest people in the Country to vote for it, that what? We push a bill through the houses of Commons and Lords (or its replacement). But they are merely bound to draw up the law; they are under no obligation to draw up 'workable' legislation are they? What if they draw up bad legislation (deliberately, or otherwise)? Are 30 million of us to vote on every amendment? On every clause? Or the whole bill? Surely we should at least ensure that the people have read it and fully understood it before voting on it? The speed limit scenario is ludicrous, have you not been to Germany? I used that as an example. It could be anything. Gun ownership with a thousand deaths. All health and safety legislation resulting in five thousand deaths? The question remains the same. Who becomes accountable and whose job is it to tidy up the mess? Do we wait for another vote?
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Post by fretslider on Jul 4, 2010 20:24:19 GMT
Such a luddite view
Can you explain why the right of petition is no problem in other countries..... try to keep it under 300 words.
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