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Post by randomvioce on May 16, 2010 20:23:20 GMT
the murder rate has absolutely NO relevance to the subject. the simple FACT that you place more value on the life of a murderer than on a five year old child who has been murdered makes you FAR less civilized than us Really? You guys kill each other at at a rate that we would baulk at. When someone is murdered it is headline news here. I wonder what the murder rate for children is here compared to there? I bet yours is higher. I wonder why that is?
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Post by june on May 16, 2010 20:42:56 GMT
Tell you what, I will compare Europes murder rate with America any day of the week. We are a far less violent place than America. More civilised too. the murder rate has absolutely NO relevance to the subject. the simple FACT that you place more value on the life of a murderer than on a five year old child who has been murdered makes you FAR less civilized than us That's quite an intellectual jump isn't it? If you won't kill you don't care about life? The murderer is punished. The fact they aren't killed by the state has nothing to do with what value one places on another life. Quite the opposite. If you value life, then logically you cannot kill anyone. You Jumbo, value certain lives, the ones you think have a right to live. I (and my country) don't place ourselves so high and mighty to make such grand pronouncements, I am very thankful to say. I also find flinging around overly emotive examples (ie a five year old child) often means there is a lack of substance to the argument. The emotional blackmail of "if you don't agree the you obviously endorse children being killed" rarely works on anyone with even half a brain.
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Post by randomvioce on May 16, 2010 20:47:20 GMT
Here are a list of Countries that have the death penalty, a pretty rum lot if you ask me. I see the Worlds most backward and cruel regimes are well reperesented on this list, Who would want to appear shoulder to shoulder with these Countries?
•Afghanistan •Antigua and Barbuda •Bahamas •Bahrain •Bangladesh •Barbados •Belarus •Belize •Botswana •Burundi •Cameroon •Chad •China (People's Republic) •Comoros •Congo (Democratic Republic) •Cuba •Dominica •Egypt •Equatorial Guinea •Eritrea •Ethiopia •Gabon •Ghana •Guatemala •Guinea •Guyana •India •Indonesia •Iran •Iraq •Jamaica •Japan •Jordan •Korea, North •Korea, South •Kuwait •Laos •Lebanon •Lesotho •Libya •Malawi •Malaysia •Mongolia •Nigeria •Oman •Pakistan •Palestinian Authority •Qatar •St. Kitts and Nevis •St. Lucia •St. Vincent and the Grenadines •Saudi Arabia •Sierra Leone •Singapore •Somalia •Sudan •Swaziland •Syria •Taiwan •Tajikistan •Tanzania •Thailand •Trinidad and Tobago •Uganda •United Arab Emirates •United States •Vietnam •Yemen •Zambia •Zimbabwe
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 28, 2010 4:49:58 GMT
the murder rate has absolutely NO relevance to the subject. the simple FACT that you place more value on the life of a murderer than on a five year old child who has been murdered makes you FAR less civilized than us Really? You guys kill each other at at a rate that we would baulk at. When someone is murdered it is headline news here. I wonder what the murder rate for children is here compared to there? I bet yours is higher. I wonder why that is? America may have more of a tendency for individual violence than Europe does! The potential for mass violence in Europe is stronger though! An American can visit any sport event he/she wishes and root for the visiting team, while surrounded by hometeam fans, without fear of violent attacks! The European football/soccer games can lead to all sorts of mass violence between the fans of opposing teams. Political demonstrations in Europe can also quickly become violent!
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Post by riotgrrl on May 29, 2010 11:17:10 GMT
Really? You guys kill each other at at a rate that we would baulk at. When someone is murdered it is headline news here. I wonder what the murder rate for children is here compared to there? I bet yours is higher. I wonder why that is? America may have more of a tendency for individual violence than Europe does! The potential for mass violence in Europe is stronger though! An American can visit any sport event he/she wishes and root for the visiting team, while surrounded by hometeam fans, without fear of violent attacks! The European football/soccer games can lead to all sorts of mass violence between the fans of opposing teams. Political demonstrations in Europe can also quickly become violent! There is a tradition of mob violence in the UK, and in parts of the rest of Europe, yes. For example, when the Union Treaty between Scotland and England was signed in 1707, mobs took to the streets of Glasgow and Edinburgh to protest. Of course, these working men and women did not have a vote, did not have a say, and were forced to accept a Treaty negotiated by the landowners and wealthy for their own benefit. In the absence of democracy, mob violence was the only way that the ordinary people could make their voice heard. America has no long history of Government without democracy like Europe does, so maybe that is one of the reasons why Americans are more concerned about individual rights than collective? Just a theory. America, of course, does have SOME history of political mobs - thinking of the Stonewall riots for example, or some of the incidents in the civil rights movement. But on the whole, it does seem like America just simply doesn't ahve the tradition of mass violence that Europe does. As I say, it's just a theory I've thought up. Does it ring true to anyone else?
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Post by randomvioce on May 29, 2010 13:08:18 GMT
But on the whole, it does seem like America just simply doesn't ahve the tradition of mass violence that Europe does. Oh there is plenty of mob violence in America, you mentioned some of them yourself, think about the race riots, drive by shootings, the bootleggers in the 1920, the mob, the Rodney King riots etc. They are a Country born in violence and managed to have a civil war within their first century of existence. America has a long history of violence alright, they normally pack up their young men, arm them to the teeth and let them loose onto the civilians of another Country to wreck it. America has spent much of its history in a state of war and places like Vietnam, Korea, Iraq etc suffer from it. They even inaded Grenada where there wasn't even have an enemy!
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on May 29, 2010 13:55:22 GMT
RV have you ever been to America? Spent much time here?
You remind me of a Communist organizer I once heard ranting on a soap box as Speaker's Corner in London. He was explaining to his audience what life was like in Chicago. I don't think I've ever laughed so hard. My side hurt and I had trouble catching my breath.
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Post by alanseago on May 29, 2010 15:17:30 GMT
I have spent a lot of time there but that is irrelevant. We now have TV news, radio and internet. No-one expects to see gunfights on every street, nor do we expect to find a Hollywood movie paradise.
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Post by fretslider on May 29, 2010 15:28:46 GMT
RV have you ever been to America? Spent much time here? You remind me of a Communist organizer I once heard ranting on a soap box as Speaker's Corner in London. He was explaining to his audience what life was like in Chicago. I don't think I've ever laughed so hard. My side hurt and I had trouble catching my breath. Didn't you know, das...... RV knows more about where you live than you do. I believe he lives in the vicinity of Winslow Az, but he does get around
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Post by randomvioce on May 29, 2010 17:17:18 GMT
Didn't you know, das...... RV knows more about where you live than you do. I believe he lives in the vicinity of Winslow Az, but he does get around I have not been to America for the last 15 years, but sadly I am unlikely to return thanks to the Americans insisting that to enter the Country, I must submit to a biometric scan. I would not consent to such a catalogue in this Country, far less to appease one of the most backward regimes on the planet. That is a real shame, because I find America a fascinating Country and there is something romantic about the wide open spaces and the open road. But if that is their rules, that is fair enough. However, that does not detract from the point that America has some of the stupidest Right Wing politicians, is one of the most violent Countries, a backward regime and an anti science streak.
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Post by chefmate on May 29, 2010 23:29:08 GMT
is there atonement for any crime?
I'm sure a woman who has been raped and violently beaten will never find the peace of mind she once had and no one can ever atone for the thought she will now have in her head.
If you steal and total my one of a kind classic car, you can never atone for that either......all the money in the world will never replace it.
Atonement is an overused word by pros.
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Post by sadie1263 on May 30, 2010 0:31:02 GMT
No....there is no atonement. You can never give back the piece of mind or the security, innocence that was taken.
My sister's house was broken into......it wasn't the stuff that was stolen that bothered her so much........it was that loss of being safe in her own home, of being able to walk into her own home and feel comfortable.........that has been forever shattered......and that was something minor.....compared to what happens in other cases.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on May 30, 2010 1:25:06 GMT
Well that's sad RV. I was hoping we might be able to hang out together and visit some of our national landmarks like the Grand Canyon, Yosemite, Washington DC, and Ground Zero (9/11 NYC).
The really unfortunate thing isn't your reluctance to visit America. It's that you can't vote here. This is a Democracy where we value everyone's vote even if they've gone over the edge and voted for the looney Democrats.
I believe America is the greatest country on earth. But unfortunately we now have Obama so it is difficult for me to defend that view.
Let's put it this way. We were surely the greatest country on Earth when GWB was President. Now i'm not so sure. Maybe Australia is the greatest country. They surely do have Muslims in focus.
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd - Australia
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.. Separately, Rudd angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT.. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. ' 'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom' 'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!' 'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.' 'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.' 'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.' 'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'
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Post by alanseago on May 30, 2010 10:54:54 GMT
Remember Random that the Pilgrim Fathers did not sail to America to create a free society. They set up a restrictive, church ruled society where dissenters could be fined, expelled or even executed. It is now a good place to send the world's loonies and wakkos, they can grow long beards and hide in the forests. At least they no longer have a president who thinks he is John Wayne. Gawge had one thing in his favour, like Big John he had trouble speaking English but Gawge could act.
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Post by randomvioce on May 30, 2010 11:14:25 GMT
Well that's sad RV. I was hoping we might be able to hang out together and visit some of our national landmarks like the Grand Canyon, Yosemite, Washington DC, and Ground Zero (9/11 NYC). Yes, I will miss many of these things and lots more besides. We have had a couple programmes regarding America. Stephen Fry's trek across America was stunning and Dave Gorman's attempt to travel America using only 'mom and pop' busineses was great, I would have dearly loved to have done that. Well that's sad RV. I was hoping we might be able to hang out together and visit some of our national landmarks like the Grand Canyon, Yosemite, Washington DC, and Ground Zero (9/11 NYC). The really unfortunate thing isn't your reluctance to visit America. It's that you can't vote here. This is a Democracy where we value everyone's vote even if they've gone over the edge and voted for the looney Democrats. I believe America is the greatest country on earth. But unfortunately we now have Obama so it is difficult for me to defend that view. Difficult to dee what measurements you are using to determine this. You certainly are not using poverty or access to health care as your benchmark, because if you are you are below most of Europe in that score, in fact, you are behind most of Europe in every sphere that you can measure.
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Post by Big Lin on May 30, 2010 15:38:35 GMT
I freely admit that I'm a very reluctant pro. Because of my committment to prison reform and inmate's rights I regularly get accused of hypocrisy by pros just as antis accuse me of it because I also support the death penalty.
People have all kinds of reasons why they support or oppose execution. Mine are a mixture of personal - having someone I loved dearly murdered, a feeling that murderers do not get the degree of punishment they deserve if they DON'T get executed, removing violent killers from society permanently.
Other people argue for or against it on grounds like cost, deterrence, inhumanity and so on.
It's always hard too when you believe (as I firmly DO believe) that NOT all intentional killings ARE murder OR should be regarded as such.
Otherwise it seems to me that you put the Czech Resistance who killed Heydrich on the SAME moral level as Heydrich himself.
It seems to me that UNLESS you accept that some intentional killings really ARE justified homicide - Heydrich's assassination is an obvious example, so was Georg Elser's attempt to blow up Hitler, so was ETA's assassination of Carrero Blanco, so was Marianne Bachmeier's decision to kill the paedophile who raped and murdered her daughter.
I could go on but all these cases seem clearly ones where the action of killing WAS justified.
I'm afraid I really DO question the moral sense of someone who puts the likes of Ramirez, Pike, Sutcliffe, Heydrich and so on as if they were morally equivalent to any other killing.
I'm afraid I really DO have to say that, yes, however much it angers people to hear me say it (and I know it does from bitter experience) the lives of SOME 'victims' really ARE worth less than others.
Millions of lives could have been saved if Elser's assassination attempt in 1939 had succeeded in killing Hitler.
ETA's assassination of Blanco (Franco's designated heir) forced him to turn to Juan Carlos instead who of course restored democracy to Spain and ended fascism.
Killing a paedophile murderer is NOT on the same level of moral equivalence as what the sick perp himself did.
I support execution for genuine murders.
Unfortunately a lot of people think that all intentional killings ARE murder.
IMHO they are just plain mistaken.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on May 30, 2010 19:35:46 GMT
Lin - I agree that the DP should be reserved for the worst of the worst. That's how it usually works too. The District Attorney's office will only seek the DP when they think it is fully justified.
My biggest disagreement with the death penalty is that it is unevenly applied because of states rights. If you're going to murder your spouse you might want to do it while on vacation in Vermont rather than in Texas. Or you could take him/her on the vacation of a lifetime to Italy and do it there. At worst you'd be looking at a short prison sentence.
I tend to be on the Pro side of the aisle perhaps because the Anti DP arguments seem so hollow. The one that really makes me shake my head is the "all human life is valuable." I couldn't disagree more. Serial killers like Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, etc. are truly worthless. Their lives have negative value to society. Once we execute someone like that our world is a better place.
The cost argument that the Anti's trot out from time to time is perhaps the most bogus of all their arguments. The idea that we will save money with LIFO because the DP costs so much is not an argument against the DP. It is, however, a very strong argument for judicial reform. It doesn't argue that killers should catch a break. It argues that the system is badly broken and needs to be fixed.
I'd like to see a fairly and uniformly applied DP across all of the United States. In fact, I'd like to see it worldwide but that's wishful thinking.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on May 30, 2010 20:16:45 GMT
Difficult to dee what measurements you are using to determine this. You certainly are not using poverty or access to health care as your benchmark, because if you are you are below most of Europe in that score, in fact, you are behind most of Europe in every sphere that you can measure. Comparing Europe to the USA on standard of living or quality of life is a mixed bag. Both have a lot to offer. Europe is definitely my favorite vacation destination (especially France, Italy, and Spain) because of the history, scenery, regional cooking, and cultural attractions. Costs are very high especially good restaurants, taxes, transportation (especially road tolls and petrol), hotels, and housing. I love the little street markets and small shops that are scattered about European cities and villages but prices are often on the high side. You have to find an Auchan or similar discount store to get decent prices. As an example, we're going to be in the Costa Brava area in northeastern Spain this fall. El Bulli in Roses Spain is a Michelin 3 Star restaurant that many 'foodies' consider the world's best restaurant. We dined there about ten years ago before it was so widely known. I emailed a few months ago to inquire about a reservation and they told me all tables were fully booked a year in advance and only a small percentage of reservation requests could be honored. They have only one menu. It is a tasting menu. The current price is 283 Euros per person for the meal. You may want to add wines to that. We have some expensive restaurants over here but not in that bracket. My favorite hotel in Europe is the San Pietro in Positano Italy. We stayed there about 11 or 12 years ago. I checked recently and their standard room is now up to 550 Euros per night. That's about $700 USD for a their basic hotel room. Prices like that take your breath away. Many of our favorites, like the San Pietro, have moved beyond our price range. RV if you can afford to dine at El Bulli and stay at the Hotel San Pietro then you definitely do have a higher standard of living than we do :-) When we return from a Europe trip we always appreciate Houston. The streets are so wide. There is almost never a problem with parking. Our house is two story with glass windows across the back and a central two story glassed atrium. It is about 3700 square feet (about 350 square meters) in a nice neighborhood. The rear of our home faces a small lake that is shared by 15 other home owners. I believe our house has a current market value of about $350,000 which would be less than 300,000 Euros. We might be able to afford a small house in a nice part of Europe but I'm sure our standard of living would drop a lot in terms of housing quality. I think your house or apartment is a big part of your standard of living.
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Post by Synonym on May 30, 2010 21:05:23 GMT
I tend to be on the Pro side of the aisle perhaps because the Anti DP arguments seem so hollow. The one that really makes me shake my head is the "all human life is valuable." I couldn't disagree more. Serial killers like Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, etc. are truly worthless. Their lives have negative value to society. Once we execute someone like that our world is a better place. The cost argument that the Anti's trot out from time to time is perhaps the most bogus of all their arguments. The idea that we will save money with LIFO because the DP costs so much is not an argument against the DP. It is, however, a very strong argument for judicial reform. What about the 'mistakes will be made' argument? It is almost 100% certain that miscarriages of justice will occur, so why use irreversible punishments when there is no great need to.
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Post by randomvioce on May 30, 2010 23:42:54 GMT
Comparing Europe to the USA on standard of living or quality of life is a mixed bag. Both have a lot to offer. Europe is definitely my favorite vacation destination (especially France, Italy, and Spain) because of the history, scenery, regional cooking, and cultural attractions. Costs are very high especially good restaurants, taxes, transportation (especially road tolls and petrol), hotels, and housing. I love the little street markets and small shops that are scattered about European cities and villages but prices are often on the high side. You have to find an Auchan or similar discount store to get decent prices. As an example, we're going to be in the Costa Brava area in northeastern Spain this fall. El Bulli in Roses Spain is a Michelin 3 Star restaurant that many 'foodies' consider the world's best restaurant. We dined there about ten years ago before it was so widely known. I emailed a few months ago to inquire about a reservation and they told me all tables were fully booked a year in advance and only a small percentage of reservation requests could be honored. They have only one menu. It is a tasting menu. The current price is 283 Euros per person for the meal. You may want to add wines to that. We have some expensive restaurants over here but not in that bracket. My favorite hotel in Europe is the San Pietro in Positano Italy. We stayed there about 11 or 12 years ago. I checked recently and their standard room is now up to 550 Euros per night. That's about $700 USD for a their basic hotel room. Prices like that take your breath away. Many of our favorites, like the San Pietro, have moved beyond our price range. RV if you can afford to dine at El Bulli and stay at the Hotel San Pietro then you definitely do have a higher standard of living than we do :-) When we return from a Europe trip we always appreciate Houston. The streets are so wide. There is almost never a problem with parking. Our house is two story with glass windows across the back and a central two story glassed atrium. It is about 3700 square feet (about 350 square meters) in a nice neighborhood. The rear of our home faces a small lake that is shared by 15 other home owners. I believe our house has a current market value of about $350,000 which would be less than 300,000 Euros. We might be able to afford a small house in a nice part of Europe but I'm sure our standard of living would drop a lot in terms of housing quality. I think your house or apartment is a big part of your standard of living. But you said 'America' is the greatest Country in the World, not 'your house' You have to look at the average or perhaps the typical standard of living. Given that 40 million Americans cannot get health coverage, I cannot think of anywhere in the EU that has that or the levels of abject poverty that you see in the worse parts of the U.S. either. I cannot think of anywhere in Europe that has the murder rate of America, although our murder rate is quite high by EU standards, it is nowhere near as bad as America either. Spain is an interesting Country in so far that it was a facist Nation less than forty years ago. Once it joined the EU, it was transformed into the Country you visit today. It is an EU success story.
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