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Post by mouse on May 9, 2010 17:52:02 GMT
there are many admin jobs that could be done a way ...you dont need a nurse manager for each wars or even each unit ..wards have serataries...nurses fill in patient charts and yes too much papaer work staff nurses responsible to day sister should run each ward day sister should be more than capable of running her unit,,,no need for individual managers no need for diversity managers..cut down the numbers of human resourses....each little group ie.porters..x ray..medical..surgical etc etc they dont all need seperate managers...same with cleaners...get cleaners back to allocated wards under the direction of day sister..and watch the standards improve it gets like those russian dolls..and manager within a manager within a manager..all very lucrative...but not really necessary
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Post by Ben Lomond on May 9, 2010 18:47:48 GMT
By that I mean we do NOT sack nurses...we cut the NHS admin staff. We do NOT cut front line social services...we cut the smoking cessation officers, the outreach workers, Ned, you say that but you do not provide any evidence to back that up. You suggest that there is a number admin jobs that the NHS could happily do away with, but surely you recognise that these will still have to be done. If you cut admin staff, then that means you are going to have to remove frontline staff from wards to do the work. Do you really want nurses carrying out routine filling, for example, or do you want her cleaning wounds? Why send a nurse to college for four years at a great cost to us, paying up wards of 20 grand, giving them all the medical expertise and then having working round a filing cabinet that someone on 10 grand could do? Don’t cut nurses, just make them deal with the payroll instead? Really Ned? Is that your clarion call? Speak to any nurse and they will tell you that the biggest bug bear that many of them have is the fact they already have too much paperwork as it is, and you think that the solution is to increase that paperwork? Why pay a surgeon a king’s ransom to determine shift rotas answering phones and all those mundane tasks that a competent practice manager could do? Why take him (or her) out of theatre put them into management courses at great expense so that we can sack his practice manager and increasing his workload, but reduce the amount of time he actually operates on patients? Where is the saving there, Ned? Because, for the life of me, I cannot see it. I am willing to put my neck out here, had that person wanted to be an administrator, then instead of going to university to study medicine, they would have been more than capable of completing a secretarial course. Your argument is flawed in that it makes sweeping assumptions which are then presented as fact. These are TOO obvious to reiterate!
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Post by june on May 9, 2010 20:04:56 GMT
there are many admin jobs that could be done a way ...you dont need a nurse manager for each wars or even each unit ..wards have serataries...nurses fill in patient charts and yes too much papaer work staff nurses responsible to day sister should run each ward day sister should be more than capable of running her unit,,,no need for individual managers no need for diversity managers..cut down the numbers of human resourses....each little group ie.porters..x ray..medical..surgical etc etc they dont all need seperate managers...same with cleaners...get cleaners back to allocated wards under the direction of day sister..and watch the standards improve it gets like those russian dolls..and manager within a manager within a manager..all very lucrative...but not really necessary Cleaners rarely work for the NHS - they were 'outsourced' by the last conservative gov. So on one hand their admin is done outside the NHS BUT the admin of the stae of cleanliness of the hspital remains within the NHS. ie we are paying twice for the same thing
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Post by june on May 9, 2010 20:11:26 GMT
If you really want to save money by bashing the public sector (and why not, it ususally takes the hit for provate sector cock ups) then here's what to do: *Stop all the pointless 'joined up services' stuff. It never works and costs billions to try and support. *Rationalise all the 'training' schemes for unemployed people and link them to jobs available. *Do not follow through on local devolution for services such as benefits etc. The more people touch the cash the smaller it becomes and there is a perfectly good national system in place. *don't replace tridant *don't drop business tax down from 28% for the big companies but have preferential rates for smaller local business
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Post by randomvioce on May 9, 2010 21:30:41 GMT
there are many admin jobs that could be done a way Is there? Name them? Where do you get that information? you dont need a nurse manager for each wars or even each unit .. Why not? staff nurses responsible to day sister should run each ward day sister should be more than capable of running her unit Surely staff nurses should be nursing, not admin jobs. Why do you want fully trained nurses doing routine admin tasks? I cannot understand the 'saving' there. Can you explain why paying a £25,000 nurse with about 15 year’s experience as a nurse and none as an administrator to do administration instead of someone with an administration experience? We would not expect a secretary to clean wounds apply sutures etc. so why take a nurse out of the frontline? they dont all need seperate managers How do you know that?
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Post by randomvioce on May 9, 2010 21:38:27 GMT
Your argument is flawed in that it makes sweeping assumptions which are then presented as fact. These are TOO obvious to reiterate! Sorry, Ned. You cannot simply say there are 'too many' admin staff unless you tell us what jobs you want to eleminate. Take NICE for example. You could get rid of NICE tomorrow, but then who measures the cost effectiveness of new drugs? Who approves that new drug and on what rationale? Does it become a purely political edict handed down from the Minister for health? If so, does he seek advice from medical groups? Again does that mean we replace one Qango with another? To what end?
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Post by randomvioce on May 9, 2010 21:56:17 GMT
You want to cut public spending? First of all withdraw funding for all rural post offices. Pretty painless as many of their functions can be accessed via the internet anyway, if some Country bumkins complain so what?
Second claw back farm subsidies and buy cheap imported food. Again that can save us millions overnight as cheap food wil push down inflation even further.
The beauty of that will be that that land prices will fall too as farmer go belly up. This will make new houses cheaper and stimulate the housing market.
Sell of the Falklands and Gibraltar!!!!!! There goes huge chunks of the National debt right there and then! The Spanish and Argies would love to get their hands on these outposts, esp the Falklands with its oil reserves. We have spent countless billions defending these useless islands oveer the decades. That would add millions onto the defence budget as well.
Revoke 'charity' status from public schools. Eton is not a charity, not by any means. That must be worth a few millions.
Nothing there that causes us problems. In fact they raise money for us!
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Post by mouse on May 9, 2010 22:01:33 GMT
yes i know..i was there at the time and what an almighty cock up it was..shorter hours..less pay..less cleaning staff to do more work..various things taken out of the cleaners remit and taken away from the ward sisters province.. ward sister and or staff nurse are there 24-7 and know a damned sight more about what needs to be done on the ward and in the ward bathrooms and day rooms than some civi admin who wanders round now and then...its an on job job not some thing which can catered for from a distance ie the cleaner may have just finnished a bathroom and onto say the day room..when a patient has a hemorage in the bathroom...no amount of time and motion can allow for the variations of cleaning jobs...you can have a basic job but there are the unexpected that happen in a hospital situation and the nurse in charge SHOULD BE INOVERAL CONTROL.. cleaners like laundries and kitchens NEED to be back into hospital hands.
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Post by mouse on May 9, 2010 22:15:18 GMT
You want to cut public spending? First of all withdraw funding for all rural post offices. Pretty painless as many of their functions can be accessed via the internet anyway, if some Country bumkins complain so what? Second claw back farm subsidies and buy cheap imported food. Again that can save us millions overnight as cheap food wil push down inflation even further. The beauty of that will be that that land prices will fall too as farmer go belly up. This will make new houses cheaper and stimulate the housing market. Sell of the Falklands and Gibraltar!!!!!! There goes huge chunks of the National debt right there and then! The Spanish and Argies would love to get their hands on these outposts, esp the Falklands with its oil reserves. We have spent countless billions defending these useless islands oveer the decades. That would add millions onto the defence budget as well. Revoke 'charity' status from public schools. Eton is not a charity, not by any means. That must be worth a few millions. the oil reserves in falklands waters are just about to bear fruit...do you really want to all the investment go elsewhere.. the falkanders dont wish to be governed by argentina..same applys to gib...or do peoples wishes not matter eaton..by all means get rid of charitable status[such angst]..along with the use the local schools have of their facilities because of that charitable status..... and the state school pupils who attend on scholarship as part of that charitable status .....oddly most public schools put quite a lot back into the areas in which they are situated...[actually be happy at least SOME of our youth are still getting a descent education...pity the state system is not in the same league as it ought to be yup lets get rid of all the farmers..lets build and concrete new chav cities..what do we need the countryside for....little boxes made of ticky tacky and rural postoffices..away with them...well thanks to various governments they are all but gone now...
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Post by mouse on May 9, 2010 22:22:55 GMT
there are many admin jobs that could be done a way Is there? Name them? Where do you get that information? ? i have conections.... ;D...you would be amazed where i get information and what i know.... but dont take my word for it...... in case you missed it...cleggy speaking to nurses only the other week said he wanted to greatly reduce the numbers of managers...he got a very very good reception for that idea...its common knowledge in the nhs that the numbers of managers should be greatly reduced...many are just glorified jobsworth and coudnt manage a booze up in a brewery..as numerous cases in the press have highlighted and the pay off when got rid of are a disgrace
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on May 10, 2010 15:45:20 GMT
Here is a 'bigger picture' view of the Euro crisis and how it must change longer term. Much like the USA, which evolved from strong states and weak federal government, the EU will transition toward a strong central government and relatively weak member states.
Europe Is About To Change Dramatically Over The Next Decade, Here's How It Will Look Gregory White | May. 10, 2010, Business Insider Last night saw a massive bailout of the eurozone's fringe in order to alleviate the pressure on the PIIGS states, which have seen sovereign debt levels rocket and their ability to lend diminished.
This bailout is being construed as a one time deal set to re-balance the European economy and protect the eurozone, but it is actually the first step in a program that will see the eurozone become a more federal union with a single treasury and federal tax policy. It's inevitable really. How could the eurozone, an area with economies as disparate as the United States, maintain a currency union without the balancing effects of centralized treasury?
Like the United States prior to revolution and under the Articles of Confederation, the eurozone exists within the context of a weak, decentralized government. Policies of taxation and budgets are primarily controlled at state level. But other key issues, like price stability and inflation, are controlled by the European Central Bank. There is therefore a divergence of interests that needs to be rectified.
Bailing out its fringe repeatedly is not a long-term solution to this problem. Forming a eurozone treasury, which can issue its own debt to support the area and manage the budgets of its member states, is.
Merkel has already called for the focus to move to the "root of the problem," meaning consolidating member state budgets.
Slowly but surely more power from states will shift to the European Central Bank and European Union from its member states.
In the future, states admitted to the eurozone will need to jump through more hoops, and sacrifice more sovereignty, to gain approval. But the fiscal union will be stronger, its growth more controlled, and its stability more assured.
Like California and New York, the powerhouses of the U.S. economy, Germany and France will be expected to provide tax-driven support to the fringe states. They're citizens will just have to get used to it.
And when the sovereign debt crisis comes home to America, expect states to have to sacrifice more political independence for their bailouts, as the U.S. federal government becomes even stronger.
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Post by randomvioce on May 10, 2010 16:46:55 GMT
the oil reserves in falklands waters are just about to bear fruit...do you really want to all the investment go elsewhere.. You keep telling us we need to balance the books now, Mouse. You are the one who has stated we need to forgo all the extras. Sell our loss making colonies now and do away with the costs. the falkanders dont wish to be governed by argentina..same applys to gib...or do peoples wishes not matter eaton Not in the least. If they are not happy living as part of Argentina what of it? Take it up with their new leaders and leave us alone.
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Post by randomvioce on May 10, 2010 16:50:10 GMT
cleggy speaking to nurses only the other week said he wanted to greatly reduce the numbers of managers... It is easy to get a clap when you say that other people should get the sack, but it is quite another when you tell nurses that they will have to do the paperwork that these managers do.
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Post by fretslider on May 10, 2010 18:13:21 GMT
cleggy speaking to nurses only the other week said he wanted to greatly reduce the numbers of managers... It is easy to get a clap when you say that other people should get the sack, but it is quite another when you tell nurses that they will have to do the paperwork that these managers do. Don't worry, RV, now that the PPP and PFI bombshells are about to go off people are going to be sacked anyway.
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Post by Mo-DAWG on May 10, 2010 20:16:41 GMT
a) the Euro has been a "stillborn child" from the very beginning. Participating states have been, are and always will be far to different to have a common currency. The current bailout is a bubble that just delays the Euro collapse. Only ones to have a gain from it will be banks who want their loans to be paid back. Besides - think about this: states MAKE/CREATE their money - now why do these creators of money borrow their own money (which they print/create) from banks and pay interest?? ever thought about that?
b) the Euro will collapse completely and it doesnt matter much for politicians anymore since they already openly admit they re working on a "one world government/new world order". Also remember what David Rockefeller said publically in 1994: "All we need is the right big crisis and nations will accept the new world order". that's where we are now ..
c) everyone please stop calling Europe and the USA democracies. We are not democracies but Political Parities Oligarchies. Read the meaning up and be surprised. Democracy doesnt exist in the US and Europe.
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Post by mouse on May 11, 2010 7:34:53 GMT
the oil reserves in falklands waters are just about to bear fruit...do you really want to all the investment go elsewhere.. You keep telling us we need to balance the books now, Mouse. You are the one who has stated we need to forgo all the extras. Sell our loss making colonies now and do away with the costs. . you will balance the books a damned sight easier with oil flowing than you will without it..plus the investment as been heavey so we need some return ..the falklands is not an ""extra"" you dont balance books by throwing money away which is what labour of course has been doing ...you balance books by getting rid of dead wood and extras..when you cannot aford a loaf you dont buy chocolates.....what you buy is flour and yeast
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Post by mouse on May 11, 2010 7:37:26 GMT
i take it you think the same applys to all people where ever.......at least that attitude solves the immigration problem....dont look to the uk sort it out with your own govs...yeah...problem solved ;D
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Post by mouse on May 11, 2010 7:40:13 GMT
a) c) everyone please stop calling Europe and the USA democracies. We are not democracies but Political Parities Oligarchies. Read the meaning up and be surprised. Democracy doesnt exist in the US and Europe. spot on mo...i see its going to cost us 8billion as our share of propping up greece....er 8billion more we have to borrow to prop up a curency we are not part of...good thinking labour..............more debt.......wunderfool aint it
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Post by jade on May 11, 2010 8:25:23 GMT
Getting back to the thread topic - can I raise a point that has me puzzled.
One of the greatest fears of the crisis that I have heard talked about is that "the markets" will fall on destabilised countries like a fox in a chicken house, tearing it to ribbons and caring not for the destruction it causes.
Now why don't we just stop that happening rather than trying to shore up the "market" and appease it?
Surely this is our biggest issue, that fatbastard capitalists will ignore what is best for actual people and go for their own profit, regardless of who gets hurt?
So is it totally beyond us to look them in the eye and say "No, this will not do"?
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Post by fretslider on May 11, 2010 8:30:31 GMT
Getting back to the thread topic - can I raise a point that has me puzzled. One of the greatest fears of the crisis that I have heard talked about is that "the markets" will fall on destabilised countries like a fox in a chicken house, tearing it to ribbons and caring not for the destruction it causes. Now why don't we just stop that happening rather than trying to shore up the "market" and appease it? Surely this is our biggest issue, that fatbastard capitalists will ignore what is best for actual people and go for their own profit, regardless of who gets hurt? So is it totally beyond us to look them in the eye and say "No, this will not do"? Money talks and bullshit walks. Here endeth the lesson.
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