|
Post by trubble on Apr 21, 2010 19:01:40 GMT
The Sony case angers me on every count, the least of which is the muslim comparison aspect; I thought the use of the cathedral was atrocious and unforgiveable.
But yes, it definitely shows that corporate power does not want to anger its market.
|
|
|
Post by trubble on Apr 21, 2010 19:15:33 GMT
I think Jade was really asking if it was ethically correct to impose western values on countries with vastly different histories or cultures. I am always torn on that issue. I suppose it must be the correct thing to do when it comes to such obvious oppression/abuse as happens in forced/child marriage - the ethics of protecting children/people trumps the ethics of protecting tradition or of not interfering (I am sure Captain Kirk would agree.) In the UK, obviously it is absolutely correct to expect the traditions and values of the UK to apply to everyone. (Including shoe throwers, really). www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0420/1224268699753.htmlI see that a Northern Irish judge has put protection orders on girls to stop them being sent to Pakistan. Good to know.
|
|
|
Post by iamjumbo on Apr 26, 2010 10:33:39 GMT
I think Jade was really asking if it was ethically correct to impose western values on countries with vastly different histories or cultures. I am always torn on that issue. I suppose it must be the correct thing to do when it comes to such obvious oppression/abuse as happens in forced/child marriage - the ethics of protecting children/people trumps the ethics of protecting tradition or of not interfering (I am sure Captain Kirk would agree.) In the UK, obviously it is absolutely correct to expect the traditions and values of the UK to apply to everyone. (Including shoe throwers, really). www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0420/1224268699753.htmlI see that a Northern Irish judge has put protection orders on girls to stop them being sent to Pakistan. Good to know. we do have the duty to at least offer the backward the opportunity to enter the light. however, if they choose to be pagans, we do not have the right to forcibly impose real values on them. that is precisely why the muzzies have NO right even thinking about trying to impose their stupidity on the real people, in the civilized world
|
|
|
Post by iamjumbo on Apr 26, 2010 10:41:52 GMT
You're right Jade that we should 'catch' these young girls at school and educate them about their rights etc. But they may find it difficult to enforce their rights when they realise they could end up chopped in little bits and stuffed in a suitcase or put on the next plane to Pakistan to 'visit' granny. I've read enough interviews with young girls who defied their families over boyfriends, refusal to marry etc. and are always on the move to escape the wrath of their beloved 'family'. Yet they still say they love their parents and want to be reconciled if possible. I think society has to make the parents understand, rather than expecting frightened girls to always have the courage to stand up for themselves. The overbearing influence of the families of these young girls is something it is difficult for our culture to get to grips with. Yet they still say they love their parents and want to be reconciled if possible. that is what is so sick. to want to have anything to do with garbage that tries to harm you is pathetic
|
|
|
Post by firedancer on Apr 26, 2010 11:07:19 GMT
You find it bizarre Jumbo. I find it bizarre too. I don't understand it. I am just trying to get into the mindset of girls so brainwashed from birth that they would want reconciliation, so that I can understand it. But I doubt I ever will. (There is a parallel I believe in domestic violence where we hear that women (and men) who have been subjected to DV don't really want to leave their partners because they still love them. They just want the violence to stop. I don't understand that either..... There is such a lot about people that I don't understand
|
|
|
Post by jade on Apr 26, 2010 11:38:36 GMT
Sony Sony released a violent game that featured a shoot-out in Manchester cathedral. Calls from the Church of England to remove the game – Resistance: Fall of Man – from shop shelves were ignored. Despite the patently inappropriate staging of a gun fight in a cathedral, and the fact that a service is held in the building each year for relatives and friends of victims of gun crime. Sony failed to gain permission to use the interior in the game. Even the apology was half-hearted. Millions of copies of Little Big Planet have been withdrawn from warehouses after lines from the Koran were found to be included in the accompanying music. The game, which was due to be released, will now be re-programmed without the offending song – a track by Mali-born singer Toumani Diabate that contains two lines from the Islamic holy book. Sony confirms Muslims can expect better treatment than Christians. this is not a rule that is being differently applied, frets. The Sony Corporation simply care more about offending Muslims than they do about offending Christians. Just as a kid might care more about upsetting the school bully than the school wimp. Government A number of moves made by the Government since the London bombings to win favour with Muslim communities include "using public funds" to fly Muslim scholars to Britain, shelving legislation on forced marriage and encouraging financial arrangements to comply with Islamic requirements. The British government allows people to march through British streets screaming support for Hamas, it allows Hizb ut Tahrir to recruit on campus for the jihad against Britain and the west, it takes no action against a Muslim peer who threatens mass intimidation of Parliament, but it bans from the country a member of parliament of a European democracy. I am not exactly sure what rules are being differently applied here. You cite that Gov is working on projects to "include" muslims in mainstream society. This is correct, they are doing that. Similarly there are projects aimed at women, at offenders, at black african lads, at ........ you get my point Similarly the gov allows freedom of speech. I fyou wanted to organise a march to allow your supporters to scream your name you could do. What rule is being differently applied? The "denying of access" of a European person we did not want in is within the gift of the Home Office. The rule is that their presence would create hate and promote violence, and on that basis access was denied. Similar denials have been enforced over Muslim clerics wanting to come here and preach: Muslim cleric Dr Yusuf al-Qaradawi refused entry in order to protect community cohesion. He has described suicide bombers as "martyrs" and homosexuality as "a disease" Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan barred on the grounds that his allegedly racist and anti-Semitic views could threaten public order We also didn't let in Martha Stewart and Snoop Dog. Downtown Tooting Park illegally you get a ticket. Park illegally outside a mosque... don't get a ticket. Prisons I Muslim rapists and paedophiles to be excused sex offender courses in prison – because it is against their religion. Prisons II Muslim extremists held in maximum security terror detainee units are being given fresh sheets after every cell search by drug dogs - so that their religion is not offended. Non-Muslim prisoners are not offered clean sheets.... In 2006, the leader of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari stated that Britain will have to deal with up to two million Islamic terrorists unless there is an end to ‘demonising’ of Muslims. There is a real fear of upsetting Muslims. How will you address it? I'll do those in a bit - got to do summat now! J
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Apr 26, 2010 11:53:52 GMT
Sony Sony released a violent game that featured a shoot-out in Manchester cathedral. Calls from the Church of England to remove the game – Resistance: Fall of Man – from shop shelves were ignored. Despite the patently inappropriate staging of a gun fight in a cathedral, and the fact that a service is held in the building each year for relatives and friends of victims of gun crime. Sony failed to gain permission to use the interior in the game. Even the apology was half-hearted. Millions of copies of Little Big Planet have been withdrawn from warehouses after lines from the Koran were found to be included in the accompanying music. The game, which was due to be released, will now be re-programmed without the offending song – a track by Mali-born singer Toumani Diabate that contains two lines from the Islamic holy book. Sony confirms Muslims can expect better treatment than Christians. this is not a rule that is being differently applied, frets. The Sony Corporation simply care more about offending Muslims than they do about offending Christians. Just as a kid might care more about upsetting the school bully than the school wimp. I am not exactly sure what rules are being differently applied here. You cite that Gov is working on projects to "include" muslims in mainstream society. This is correct, they are doing that. Similarly there are projects aimed at women, at offenders, at black african lads, at ........ you get my point Similarly the gov allows freedom of speech. I fyou wanted to organise a march to allow your supporters to scream your name you could do. What rule is being differently applied? The "denying of access" of a European person we did not want in is within the gift of the Home Office. The rule is that their presence would create hate and promote violence, and on that basis access was denied. Similar denials have been enforced over Muslim clerics wanting to come here and preach: Muslim cleric Dr Yusuf al-Qaradawi refused entry in order to protect community cohesion. He has described suicide bombers as "martyrs" and homosexuality as "a disease" Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan barred on the grounds that his allegedly racist and anti-Semitic views could threaten public order We also didn't let in Martha Stewart and Snoop Dog. Downtown Tooting Park illegally you get a ticket. Park illegally outside a mosque... don't get a ticket. Prisons I Muslim rapists and paedophiles to be excused sex offender courses in prison – because it is against their religion. Prisons II Muslim extremists held in maximum security terror detainee units are being given fresh sheets after every cell search by drug dogs - so that their religion is not offended. Non-Muslim prisoners are not offered clean sheets.... In 2006, the leader of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari stated that Britain will have to deal with up to two million Islamic terrorists unless there is an end to ‘demonising’ of Muslims. There is a real fear of upsetting Muslims. How will you address it? I'll do those in a bit - got to do summat now! J Right, if you shout loud enough they'll censor South Park, perhaps the Pope should issue a fatwah, what do you think? Threats of violence definitely have an effect.
|
|
|
Post by jade on Apr 26, 2010 14:24:03 GMT
Yes, they apparently do.
Its why we still have bullies in school.
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Apr 26, 2010 14:56:08 GMT
Yes, they apparently do. Its why we still have bullies in school. And its why followers of a certain faith always get their way at the expense of our culture and freedoms
|
|
|
Post by Big Lin on Apr 26, 2010 15:43:24 GMT
Not only of THAT faith, Fret. There are still a lot of things that are illegal in Ireland because of the power of the Bishop of Rome; in America there are whole towns or counties or even states where actions, words or other things contrary to Christian fundamentalism are against the law.
I'm against ALL fanaticism.
|
|
|
Post by jade on Apr 26, 2010 16:00:18 GMT
A distinction has to be made between situations where the rules allow a benefit to a distinct group and where the rules are non-discriminatory but are applied differently to different gorups.
For example Biglin - the laws you mention above are rules that in a democracy you can campaign against and get changed if you carry the popular vote. They are in the first category
However frets is trying to say that the rules are differently applied (second category) when it comes to Muslims and that is what I am disputing.
|
|
|
Post by Big Lin on Apr 26, 2010 16:07:44 GMT
Muslim countries vary widely in the degree of freedom they allow. Turkey is by far the freest and most liberal; somewhere like Sudan or Somalia is at the opposite end of the spectrum.
In Ireland, it took a massive heave for the population to allow divorce. It's still illegal to do lots of other stuff there (though hopefully even the Irish are beginning slowly to enter the nineteenth century - NOT a typo, by the way!) and, for instance, before divorce was legal, the Irish Republic refused to recognise even a Papal annulment of a marriage.
The British government DOES have a poor track record when it comes to fairness and common sense and has for the last fifty years or so.
On the whole, most Muslims in Britain DON'T live by Sharia law and the government DOESN'T recognise MOST of the claims by extremists as valid or respond to them.
There is now MORE of a problem in Britain with Hindu fundamentalism than there is with Muslim fundamentalists. However, because the government is reluctant to offend Hindu sensibilities, they let them get away with it.
In the streets of places like Southall, Sikhs regularly fight with Hindus and Muslims but you hardly ever hear about it on the news. Sikhs have become so fed up with the special treatment that Hindus and Muslims get that many of them have taken to voting for the BNP!
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Apr 26, 2010 16:52:55 GMT
A distinction has to be made between situations where the rules allow a benefit to a distinct group and where the rules are non-discriminatory but are applied differently to different gorups. For example Biglin - the laws you mention above are rules that in a democracy you can campaign against and get changed if you carry the popular vote. They are in the first category However frets is trying to say that the rules are differently applied (second category) when it comes to Muslims and that is what I am disputing. Indeed I am, ask yourself this: where is Salman Rushdie? Why is he in hiding? You don't have to take your head out of the sand, but it wouldn't do any harm if you did. I'm guessing you don't live anywhere near followers of that faith.
|
|
|
Post by Big Lin on Apr 26, 2010 17:04:09 GMT
And is it Muslims who are setting off bombs in Northern Ireland?
Is it even Protestants who are trying to murder people there?
The IRA have long been the worst terrorist bunch of scum in the whole Western world and have killed FAR more people in Britain than 7/7 managed (horrific though that was.)
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Apr 27, 2010 15:47:11 GMT
And is it Muslims who are setting off bombs in Northern Ireland? Is it even Protestants who are trying to murder people there? The IRA have long been the worst terrorist bunch of scum in the whole Western world and have killed FAR more people in Britain than 7/7 managed (horrific though that was.) A completely unbiased view on this one? I think not somehow
|
|
|
Post by jade on Apr 28, 2010 16:06:32 GMT
A distinction has to be made between situations where the rules allow a benefit to a distinct group and where the rules are non-discriminatory but are applied differently to different gorups. For example Biglin - the laws you mention above are rules that in a democracy you can campaign against and get changed if you carry the popular vote. They are in the first category However frets is trying to say that the rules are differently applied (second category) when it comes to Muslims and that is what I am disputing. Indeed I am, ask yourself this: where is Salman Rushdie? Why is he in hiding? You don't have to take your head out of the sand, but it wouldn't do any harm if you did. I'm guessing you don't live anywhere near followers of that faith. <sigh> Yes fretty, and Mr Rushdie is, in my opinion, right to be scared. There are people who will kill him if they can but now listen carefully if they do so in our country they will be breaking our laws!Our laws, our rules will not be differently applied just because there is a fatois out on him! and if it makes you calmer, I do in fact have a long and successful history of working with people of all colours, all faiths and within the context of equalities. If anything it is your head that is buried somewhere unpleasant - you seem to suggest that just because people want to kill, maim, harm etc that we will allow it because they are Muslim, which is simply not true.
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Apr 28, 2010 16:53:03 GMT
Indeed I am, ask yourself this: where is Salman Rushdie? Why is he in hiding? You don't have to take your head out of the sand, but it wouldn't do any harm if you did. I'm guessing you don't live anywhere near followers of that faith. <sigh> Yes fretty, and Mr Rushdie is, in my opinion, right to be scared. There are people who will kill him if they can but now listen carefully if they do so in our country they will be breaking our laws!Our laws, our rules will not be differently applied just because there is a fatois out on him! and if it makes you calmer, I do in fact have a long and successful history of working with people of all colours, all faiths and within the context of equalities. If anything it is your head that is buried somewhere unpleasant - you seem to suggest that just because people want to kill, maim, harm etc that we will allow it because they are Muslim, which is simply not true. I didn't mention whom you have worked with, Jade, I mentioned where you live; they are very different things.
|
|