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Post by jade on Apr 13, 2010 12:09:04 GMT
The British High Commission assistance unit in Islamabad responds to hundreds of calls from distressed British schoolgirls coerced into relationships against their will. Adi Bloom spent a day with the team
Albert David is on his own in the office when the phone call comes. “I’m calling from a restaurant toilet,” the voice whispers. It is a female voice, and a young one. Young, quiet and afraid.
“I can’t talk any louder than this - they might hear me. If my family finds out …” There is a pause. “My father has a rifle,” the whisper says, and it quivers and catches. “He could shoot me. Really, he could shoot me. I’m … I’m …” - there is another pause, a muffled, swallowed sob - “so scared”.
Albert David is head of the assistance unit at the British High Commission in Pakistan. Heart-wrenching calls from school-age victims of forced marriages are a routine part of his day’s work. On average, he receives two new phone calls a week.
“It’s OK,” he answers, his voice all calm reassurance and capability. “I’m here to help.” Will there be less chance of the girl’s family catching her if they communicate by text message instead of phone call, he asks? The voice doesn’t answer immediately, but when it does, it speaks with palpable relief. “Yes. Yes, please. Thank you.”
This is a quiet day. Busy days are different. Not long beforehand, two members of Mr David’s four-strong team had been on a rescue to a remote village when they realised they were being followed. The cars pulled ahead of them, forcing them to stop. There were two policemen in the rescue convoy, and they climbed out. Their pursuers stepped out too, and they were armed. For a moment everyone stood still in the chill mountain air, the silence pulsing between them. In the rescue car, a teenage girl shrank into the upholstery while the police talked the gunmen into letting them pass.LinkThis is a fine example of the Brits taking care of their own but it does point to ethical conflict when the culture of the parents is up against the UK culture and law personally I applaud the UK govt for making sure that people are not forced into a marriage they don't want, but many will say that the traditions of the past should be allowed to play out against the leiberalism of today
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Post by fretslider on Apr 13, 2010 12:15:10 GMT
The British High Commission assistance unit in Islamabad responds to hundreds of calls from distressed British schoolgirls coerced into relationships against their will. Adi Bloom spent a day with the team
Albert David is on his own in the office when the phone call comes. “I’m calling from a restaurant toilet,” the voice whispers. It is a female voice, and a young one. Young, quiet and afraid.
“I can’t talk any louder than this - they might hear me. If my family finds out …” There is a pause. “My father has a rifle,” the whisper says, and it quivers and catches. “He could shoot me. Really, he could shoot me. I’m … I’m …” - there is another pause, a muffled, swallowed sob - “so scared”.
Albert David is head of the assistance unit at the British High Commission in Pakistan. Heart-wrenching calls from school-age victims of forced marriages are a routine part of his day’s work. On average, he receives two new phone calls a week.
“It’s OK,” he answers, his voice all calm reassurance and capability. “I’m here to help.” Will there be less chance of the girl’s family catching her if they communicate by text message instead of phone call, he asks? The voice doesn’t answer immediately, but when it does, it speaks with palpable relief. “Yes. Yes, please. Thank you.”
This is a quiet day. Busy days are different. Not long beforehand, two members of Mr David’s four-strong team had been on a rescue to a remote village when they realised they were being followed. The cars pulled ahead of them, forcing them to stop. There were two policemen in the rescue convoy, and they climbed out. Their pursuers stepped out too, and they were armed. For a moment everyone stood still in the chill mountain air, the silence pulsing between them. In the rescue car, a teenage girl shrank into the upholstery while the police talked the gunmen into letting them pass.LinkThis is a fine example of the Brits taking care of their own but it does point to ethical conflict when the culture of the parents is up against the UK culture and law personally I applaud the UK govt for making sure that people are not forced into a marriage they don't want, but many will say that the traditions of the past should be allowed to play out against the leiberalism of today These are not OUR traditions and it is certainly not part of OUR culture. If they wish to preserve their ways, Pakistan is the place to do it.
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Post by jade on Apr 13, 2010 15:34:16 GMT
One could argue that point fretty - we are only a generation or so away from our own version of arranged marrfiages, and in Ireland the practice had almost as much teeth as you will find in Asia when it comes to social stigmatism if you went against the family's wishes
But yes, it is an imported current culture coming up against a developed liberal culture
But they are all British, so the clas is still ours to deal with
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2010 19:11:17 GMT
One thing concerns me: on another message board I read that schools with a high proportion of children from ethnic minority backgrounds have been prevented from publicising the fact that help is available for girls who fear they will be forced into marriage. Pafrents have (so I read) objected.
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Post by fretslider on Apr 13, 2010 19:13:10 GMT
One could argue that point fretty - we are only a generation or so away from our own version of arranged marrfiages, and in Ireland the practice had almost as much teeth as you will find in Asia when it comes to social stigmatism if you went against the family's wishes But yes, it is an imported current culture coming up against a developed liberal culture But they are all British, so the clas is still ours to deal with What a defeatist attitude, Jade. Have you no pride in your culture, they have in theirs.
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Post by fretslider on Apr 13, 2010 19:14:04 GMT
One thing concerns me: on another message board I read that schools with a high proportion of children from ethnic minority backgrounds have been prevented from publicising the fact that help is available for girls who fear they will be forced into marriage. Pafrents have (so I read) objected. They were doubtless 'offended' by it
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2010 19:19:11 GMT
One could argue that point fretty - we are only a generation or so away from our own version of arranged marrfiages, and in Ireland the practice had almost as much teeth as you will find in Asia when it comes to social stigmatism if you went against the family's wishes But yes, it is an imported current culture coming up against a developed liberal culture But they are all British, so the clas is still ours to deal with What a defeatist attitude, Jade. Have you no pride in your culture, they have in theirs. How is Jade being defeatist? She says we have to deal with it, not live with it.
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Post by fretslider on Apr 13, 2010 19:23:49 GMT
What a defeatist attitude, Jade. Have you no pride in your culture, they have in theirs. How is Jade being defeatist? She says we have to deal with it, not live with it. And how pray will we deal with it?.... "SCOTLAND YARD has bowed to Islamic sensitivities and accepted that Muslims are entitled to throw shoes in ritual protest ....." www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7094311.ece
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Post by jade on Apr 15, 2010 10:30:27 GMT
If I want to throw a stilletto at you I will fretty, and only if it does damage is it assault
And we deal with it by making absolutely sure that kids in school become aware of their citizen rights - equality and rights not to be forced int o a marriage, the position of Sharia law in relation to the laws passed by Parliament, the age of consent, the rights to call time on abuse
that stuff
Its easier in schools because that is where we can guarantee to get the whole cohort of young people together to teach such stuff
We wont get the kids being "home schooled" but we will get most of them
Once we tell kids that such and such is wrong, against the law and anyone going against the law can be challenged then we start to empower young people to stand up against those who will force rather than persuade their kids into situations they prefer to avoid
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Post by fretslider on Apr 15, 2010 11:13:04 GMT
If it did damage and you happened to be of a particular faith it wouldn't be an assault, it would be a symbolic political gesture.
You haven't addressed the problem of that minority section of society which refuses to engage with society as a whole. The laws and how they are enforced is the problem, one for them and another for everyone else.
Are kids who are schooled at home the new social pariahs?
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Post by jade on Apr 15, 2010 14:53:48 GMT
You haven't addressed the problem of that minority section of society which refuses to engage with society as a whole. The laws and how they are enforced is the problem, one for them and another for everyone else. Catholics? Irish? Vegetarians? You see the problem? I htink my post above does address this: And we deal with it by making absolutely sure that kids in school become aware of their citizen rights - equality and rights not to be forced int o a marriage, the position of Sharia law in relation to the laws passed by Parliament, the age of consent, the rights to call time on abuse
that stuffAre kids who are schooled at home the new social pariahs? No, some are having a great education. Some are not. No rules, you see? You cannot make a parent send a kid into a school, so you cannot ensure they grow up knowing their rights, entitlements and social obligations.
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Post by fretslider on Apr 15, 2010 15:11:01 GMT
You haven't addressed the problem of that minority section of society which refuses to engage with society as a whole. The laws and how they are enforced is the problem, one for them and another for everyone else. Catholics? Irish? Vegetarians? You see the problem? I htink my post above does address this: And we deal with it by making absolutely sure that kids in school become aware of their citizen rights - equality and rights not to be forced int o a marriage, the position of Sharia law in relation to the laws passed by Parliament, the age of consent, the rights to call time on abuse
that stuffAre kids who are schooled at home the new social pariahs? No, some are having a great education. Some are not. No rules, you see? You cannot make a parent send a kid into a school, so you cannot ensure they grow up knowing their rights, entitlements and social obligations. No I don't see the problem because the groups you list engage in mainstream society. Your post does not address the inequalities that have arisen at all. We know which group is the issue and why. Experience shows that there is one rule for muslims and another for those of other denominations, eg Christians and Atheists. So it hasn't been dealt with at all. Aren't parents who teach at home now inspected by that joke called Ofsted? Yes they are. .
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Post by jade on Apr 15, 2010 15:22:52 GMT
you say:
Experience shows that there is one rule for muslims and another for those of other denominations, eg Christians and Atheists. So it hasn't been dealt with at all.
go on then give me a for instance where what I said does not address it?
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Post by firedancer on Apr 15, 2010 16:09:26 GMT
You're right Jade that we should 'catch' these young girls at school and educate them about their rights etc. But they may find it difficult to enforce their rights when they realise they could end up chopped in little bits and stuffed in a suitcase or put on the next plane to Pakistan to 'visit' granny.
I've read enough interviews with young girls who defied their families over boyfriends, refusal to marry etc. and are always on the move to escape the wrath of their beloved 'family'. Yet they still say they love their parents and want to be reconciled if possible.
I think society has to make the parents understand, rather than expecting frightened girls to always have the courage to stand up for themselves. The overbearing influence of the families of these young girls is something it is difficult for our culture to get to grips with.
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Post by fretslider on Apr 15, 2010 17:35:04 GMT
you say: Experience shows that there is one rule for muslims and another for those of other denominations, eg Christians and Atheists. So it hasn't been dealt with at all.go on then give me a for instance where what I said does not address it? Sony Sony released a violent game that featured a shoot-out in Manchester cathedral. Calls from the Church of England to remove the game – Resistance: Fall of Man – from shop shelves were ignored. Despite the patently inappropriate staging of a gun fight in a cathedral, and the fact that a service is held in the building each year for relatives and friends of victims of gun crime. Sony failed to gain permission to use the interior in the game. Even the apology was half-hearted. Millions of copies of Little Big Planet have been withdrawn from warehouses after lines from the Koran were found to be included in the accompanying music. The game, which was due to be released, will now be re-programmed without the offending song – a track by Mali-born singer Toumani Diabate that contains two lines from the Islamic holy book. Sony confirms Muslims can expect better treatment than Christians. Government A number of moves made by the Government since the London bombings to win favour with Muslim communities include "using public funds" to fly Muslim scholars to Britain, shelving legislation on forced marriage and encouraging financial arrangements to comply with Islamic requirements. The British government allows people to march through British streets screaming support for Hamas, it allows Hizb ut Tahrir to recruit on campus for the jihad against Britain and the west, it takes no action against a Muslim peer who threatens mass intimidation of Parliament, but it bans from the country a member of parliament of a European democracy. Downtown Tooting Park illegally you get a ticket. Park illegally outside a mosque... don't get a ticket. Prisons I Muslim rapists and paedophiles to be excused sex offender courses in prison – because it is against their religion. Prisons II Muslim extremists held in maximum security terror detainee units are being given fresh sheets after every cell search by drug dogs - so that their religion is not offended. Non-Muslim prisoners are not offered clean sheets.... In 2006, the leader of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari stated that Britain will have to deal with up to two million Islamic terrorists unless there is an end to ‘demonising’ of Muslims. There is a real fear of upsetting Muslims. How will you address it?
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Post by fretslider on Apr 16, 2010 14:42:52 GMT
Well, Jade......
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Post by trubble on Apr 21, 2010 18:06:53 GMT
I suggest you drop that one. He warned rather than threatened, as I recall. ?
Maybe it was six of one and half a dozen of the other but I'm sure you don't support public protest being a crime.
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Post by fretslider on Apr 21, 2010 18:13:15 GMT
I suggest you drop that one. He warned rather than threatened, as I recall. ? Maybe it was six of one and half a dozen of the other but I'm sure you don't support public protest being a crime. Acshully I'm all in favour of an uprising - the only way to clear out all the dead wood and get a new system
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Post by trubble on Apr 21, 2010 18:31:09 GMT
I have a little problem with some other stuff too. encouraging financial arrangements to comply with Islamic requirements. You mean banking? But does that really affect anyone? Wouldn't it be churlish to ignore their banking requests? And your mention of the shoe throwing.. from reports: It's a grey area. It is a legitimate political gesture in some Islam cultures. I think it was a silly decision but perhaps also needlessly silly to prosecute it. I think the judge could have accepted the defence of cultural differences and still have noted it as a criminal act but done ''unknowingly''. Thus he could have fined him a penny and sent him on his way (maybe??). Perhaps there is no lenient sentence for criminal acts and so it was be heavy handed or let him off completely. I recall watching a court give a sentence on peeing in public. The law was from 1863 or something similar. The fine was five old pounds or 3 months in jail. The judge said ''what's the point'' and just gave the lad a good telling off. No other option. I don't really see how this shoe ruling indicates being scared of offending muslims - although I won't argue that there is a blanket sensitivity about it that does more harm than good. The multi-/child-marriage point being a case in hand.
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Post by fretslider on Apr 21, 2010 18:36:38 GMT
Trubs
And the Sony case?
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