|
Post by jean on Feb 21, 2010 12:28:24 GMT
Well to be fair it was I who raised it - though not as a 'scapegoat' for the problem, but as a suggestion for part of the solution.
I do think we are talking about two different things here, and how far they might be connected I don't know.
The 'sexualisation'of children is no part of the development of an authentic and autonomous sexuality in women that feminism looked for - it is (from a feminist viewpoint) the objectification of women extending back even into childhood.
But you can see the sexual behaviour of some young women as the exercise of choice, which of course is part of what feminism is all about. Do we want to see freedom of choice restricted so that bad choices should never be made?
Informed choice is what I'd like to see.
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Feb 21, 2010 12:39:10 GMT
Ah - wondered how long it would be before feminism reared its head. Feminism - like Eve - a convenient scapegoat. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D It was a genuine question, I was not scapegoating and you obviously weren't thinking, were you. Recent accounts assessing the history and state of contemporary feminism all appear to cohere around an assumption that the current generation of young women are failing to identify with feminist cultural values and worse still aggressively rejecting these values. Thus such accounts implicitly suggest that feminism in the contemporary period is increasingly an historical object. That may well be the case. One could argue that today's young women have got it completely wrong by believing that equality is about aping the heavy drinking and sexual habits of their male counterparts. Some even contend that feminism has been diluted and twisted so that liberation and equality means being a laddette, indulging in the same crass behaviour as men have done in the past, and wearing a Wonderbra. I, myself, am inclined to agree in general with the post-feminist backlash theory.
|
|
|
Post by jean on Feb 21, 2010 12:45:15 GMT
I agree with most of that, fretslider, but I read your #18 (as I suspect firedancer did) as a rhetorical question expecting the answer 'everything'!
|
|
|
Post by riotgrrl on Feb 21, 2010 12:47:14 GMT
I'd like to ask some of the Americans on the board about these child beauty pagents that seem to be very popular over there. I find these quite gross . . very young girls caked in make-up, encouraged to present themselves to be judged on looks.
|
|
|
Post by riotgrrl on Feb 21, 2010 12:48:38 GMT
Fret, gender equality is gender equality.
Men have always been socially 'allowed' to go out and get drunk. Why should women not have the same permissions?
What kind of 'equality' would it be otherwise?
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Feb 21, 2010 13:09:18 GMT
I agree with most of that, fretslider, but I read your #18 (as I suspect firedancer did) as a rhetorical question expecting the answer 'everything'! I wonder how much...... You could have answered that just as I did. But I guess you were looking for the usual type of spat, sorry to disappoint.
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Feb 21, 2010 13:11:44 GMT
Fret, gender equality is gender equality. Men have always been socially 'allowed' to go out and get drunk. Why should women not have the same permissions? What kind of 'equality' would it be otherwise? I do not place restrictions on anyone, but there never will be true equality, anyhow. There are differences between the sexes.
|
|
|
Post by riotgrrl on Feb 21, 2010 13:13:20 GMT
Fret, gender equality is gender equality. Men have always been socially 'allowed' to go out and get drunk. Why should women not have the same permissions? What kind of 'equality' would it be otherwise? I do not place restrictions on anyone, but there never will be true equality, anyhow. There are differences between the sexes. I think you are confusing equality with being the same.
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Feb 21, 2010 13:16:12 GMT
I do not place restrictions on anyone, but there never will be true equality, anyhow. There are differences between the sexes. I think you are confusing equality with being the same. Do you. Then you will never ever need help of any kind from a man.
|
|
|
Post by jean on Feb 21, 2010 13:21:30 GMT
Then you will never ever need help of any kind from a man. Never any help I couldn't equally well get from a woman.
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Feb 21, 2010 13:23:31 GMT
Then you will never ever need help of any kind from a man. Never any help I couldn't equally well get from a woman. Good news for men for a change.
|
|
|
Post by riotgrrl on Feb 21, 2010 13:31:14 GMT
I think you are confusing equality with being the same. Do you. Then you will never ever need help of any kind from a man. I don't see how that follows at all. And if I am in a situation where I am seeking help from another human being, I don't see that it would be relevant what gender they were (unless the help I was looking for was to get impregnated).
|
|
|
Post by firedancer on Feb 21, 2010 13:32:46 GMT
OK - I seem to have set the cat among the pigeons Fretslider - I didn't accuse you and if it came across that way sorry. My smileys were supposed to indicate, actually, a bit of humour that whenever a thread comes up about female behaviour it is only a few posts before someone - anyone - ponders whether the behaviour is due, or partly due, to feminism. All of which leads me to ponder what part feminism might have played in, for example, the heavily female patronised gin palaces of the 18th century. The point I am, perhaps clumsily making, is that feminism is an easy target in a very complex situation. I'll get me coat
|
|
|
Post by riotgrrl on Feb 21, 2010 13:33:56 GMT
I did google up some photos of these American child beauty pageants (I think I've spelled it wrong in my earlier post) and was going to post them, but there was some kind of virus associated with one of the photos so I'm scared to try again. But little babies, as young as 1 and 2, are plastered in make-up and standing posing with their hands on their hips, etc. I can't see that it's a wholesome tradition. Have a look at this website which offers a service for touching up photos of child beauty pageant entrants . . it's creepy. www.photoretouchinglab.com/miss-teen-usa-pageant-photo-retouch-online-glitz.html
|
|
|
Post by riotgrrl on Feb 21, 2010 13:39:00 GMT
Also, so far in this discussion we seem to have exclusively focussed on little girls. What about little boys? Young lads who should be wearing short trousers and climbing trees are, instead, gelling up their hair and adopting the costumes of older men.
I think there seems to be consensus that it's not a good thing for little girls, but surely the same applies to little boys who are being asked to adopt a construct of adult masculinity very early on in life.
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Feb 21, 2010 13:51:02 GMT
Also, so far in this discussion we seem to have exclusively focussed on little girls. What about little boys? Young lads who should be wearing short trousers and climbing trees are, instead, gelling up their hair and adopting the costumes of older men. I think there seems to be consensus that it's not a good thing for little girls, but surely the same applies to little boys who are being asked to adopt a construct of adult masculinity very early on in life. Its the responsibility of the parents in every case. The problem is the fallback in the age of menarche. It is not a constant
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Feb 21, 2010 13:51:26 GMT
Do you. Then you will never ever need help of any kind from a man. I don't see how that follows at all. And if I am in a situation where I am seeking help from another human being, I don't see that it would be relevant what gender they were (unless the help I was looking for was to get impregnated). Jean does
|
|
|
Post by june on Feb 21, 2010 14:01:06 GMT
I'll take all the help I can get.
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Feb 21, 2010 14:04:27 GMT
I'll take all the help I can get. Now, that's what I call a reasoned response
|
|
|
Post by june on Feb 21, 2010 14:07:05 GMT
Children are not allowed to be children anymore. I am not sure they are necessarily sexualised but what we know as childish activities are no longer something parents encourage children to do.
This is because there is a paedophile Muslim extremist on every corner waiting to fiddle with you before blowing you up. Well, that is the hysteria we have allowed the media (and politicians) to whip us into. If they avoid the paedo/terrorist then they arrive at school where they are tested within an inch of their life and then categorised for all eternity based on those results. If they survive the testing then they are bullied or become bullies but its alright because no one takes responsibility for their own actions any more and you are unlikely to get into trouble unless you are committing fraud.
Therefore we are producing junior adults - with the weight of the world on their shoulders and responsibilities that even their parents struggle to cope with.
Happy days!
|
|