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Post by firedancer on Jan 16, 2010 17:01:27 GMT
As a newbie I've followed the debates and am struck by how decisive posters are. How convinced they are of their own point of view (mostly). I'm constantly irritated with myself because as soon as I think one POV is mine, I think "on the other hand.." Then no, yes, no, yes, oh I dunno......Good job I am not a politician ;D There are very few topics on which I am 100% sure of my views. All this means I hang back from debates on MBs because the wind could change and I could change my mind. Seeing both sides of an argument had its advantages when I was working and had to be impartial but it does make life difficult on a personal level. Sitting on the fence makes for splinters in my a*se. I do envy posters who are so damn sure of themselves. It does make life simpler. Is there anyone else on this MB like me? Surely there has to be, somewhere? Please make yourself known
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 16, 2010 17:32:37 GMT
it isn't a crime to not be able to make up your mind. for the hell of it, i'll let the girls let loose on me by saying that it's a womans' pergative. of course, you should be able to make up your mind on something, and unless there is OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary, stick by it. however, the real problem is:
All this means I hang back from debates on MBs because the wind could change and I could change my mind.
that is what a debate is about. everyone is trying to make their point and get others to agree with it. the only way that you can ever make up your mind is to participate in the discussion. if someone feels that your opinion lacks merit, they are sure to tell you so, and hopefully be able to give an intelligent reason why. that is how you learn. if you go out on the ocean in a sailboat and just kick back drinking beer, you will go absolutely nowhere. you have to trim the sails to catch the wind in order to get to a destination. you really can go east even if the wind is blowing west
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Post by Ben Lomond on Jan 16, 2010 17:40:05 GMT
Seeing both sides of an argument is not a fault, believe me. In fact, it is something of a rarity. And yet the art of debate should be just that...a dispassionate examination of all the facts, and THEN the decision. Having said that, I am not one to preach, as I often wade in from a previously held conviction standpoint. But even THAT is not a fault, if ones opinion is soundly based.
So, Firedancer, don't hang back. Whether you are for, or against, or even if you want to sit on the fence....go for it. We ALL think we know best; and none of us really do!
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Post by Big Lin on Jan 16, 2010 18:36:46 GMT
Firedancer, I understand exactly how you feel.
I won't deny that there are SOME subjects on which I DO have pretty fixed opinions.
On the other hand, there are far more where I agonise and can see both point of view.
Believe me, I'd always take an open mind over a closed one any day.
You keep sifting the evidence and thinking for yourself!
Sometimes confidence can become arrogance and certainty can turn into bigotry.
At least you don't have to worry about those problems!
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Post by beth on Jan 16, 2010 18:41:50 GMT
Fire Dancer, I can relate. While I do have a few definite opinions, I'm always twisting and turning the information to try to see it from all sides. That's not a bad thing, imo. It allows you to apply critical thinking and, when you choose, act as devil's advocate. You're able to see not only the black and the white, but the gray in-between. Looking forward to reading more of your opinions in the future.
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Post by firedancer on Jan 16, 2010 18:52:46 GMT
Thank you Iamjumbo. Words of wisdom clearly from a man who has never knowingly undersold himself! (Only joking). Seriously, it must be great to be so sure you are right. Or is it? I bet dictators don't lose much sleep agonising over whether they are right... Thank you Ben also. You see that's the problem. How can one be sure one's opinion IS soundly based, when it is just an opinion? I'm probably not as bad as I indicated. There are, of course, things I firmly believe in and feel strongly about and I do in the end make up my mind because you have to. I don't bear the impression of the last person to sit on me. I was just attempting to explain the angst I go through before coming down on one side or the other. An example from today's news. UKIP have announced that as part of their election commitment (probably academic actually) they are going to ban the burka. Now, as a feminist (see I do believe in something) I think the burka is a horrible, obnoxious garment that demeans the women who wear it and is a symbol of female oppression with, actually, no religious requirement behind it - not that a religious requirement would justify it anyway. When I worked in Islamic countries I respected their culture and wore a headscarf as the polite thing to do. So I believe Islamic women should respect our culture and refrain from wearing the burka in a country where it is the norm for people to communicate with the face uncovered. So, reading that, you would think I would be for a ban wouldn't you? True I would like to see it disappear from the face of the earth but would I ban it? Probably not, because I don't believe in imposing MY view about dress on someone else. After all, it is only MY opinion. I chose that example simply because I read about it today.
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Post by firedancer on Jan 16, 2010 18:55:16 GMT
Just seen your posts Lin and Beth. So, I am not the only potential 'wuzz' on the MB. That's a relief
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Post by beth on Jan 16, 2010 19:24:31 GMT
FD, I found your post interesting enough to dig a little deeper and offer this overview of the definition of critical thinking. You might enjoy it, and others might find it thought provoking. I seriously doubt any of us hit the mark on all these things, but it certainly seems a good check list for reference in trying to be fair and even handed. /snip . . . Assuming that critical thinking is reasonable reflective thinking focused on deciding what to believe or do, a critical thinker: 1. Is open-minded and mindful of alternatives 2. Tries to be well-informed 3. Judges well the credibility of sources 4. Identifies conclusions, reasons, and assumptions 5. Judges well the quality of an argument, including the acceptability of its reasons, assumptions, and evidence 6. Can well develop and defend a reasonable position 7. Asks appropriate clarifying questions 8. Formulates plausible hypotheses; plans experiments well 9. Defines terms in a way appropriate for the context 10. Draws conclusions when warranted, but with caution 11. Integrates all items in this list when deciding what to believe or do Critical Thinkers are disposed to: 1. Care that their beliefs be true, and that their decisions be justified; that is, care to "get it right" to the extent possible. This includes the dispositions to a. Seek alternative hypotheses, explanations, conclusions, plans, sources, etc., and be open to them b. Endorse a position to the extent that, but only to the extent that, it is justified by the information that is available c. Be well informed d. Consider seriously other points of view than their own 2. Care to present a position honestly and clearly, theirs as well as others'. This includes the dispositions to a. Be clear about the intended meaning of what is said, written, or otherwise communicated, seeking as much precision as the situation requires b. Determine, and maintain focus on, the conclusion or question c. Seek and offer reasons d. Take into account the total situation e. Be reflectively aware of their own basic beliefs 3. Care about the dignity and worth of every person (a correlative disposition). This includes the dispositions to a. Discover and listen to others' view and reasons b. Avoid intimidating or confusing others with their critical thinking prowess, taking into account others' feelings and level of understanding c. Be concerned about others' welfare /snip There's more, Here
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Post by firedancer on Jan 16, 2010 20:35:23 GMT
Thank you Beth. Makes for interesting reading. And exhausting thinking!
I guess if we all followed those rules all the time our halos would probably slip and choke us. Plus we'd never get any work done ;D
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 16, 2010 20:56:13 GMT
Thank you Iamjumbo. Words of wisdom clearly from a man who has never knowingly undersold himself! (Only joking). Seriously, it must be great to be so sure you are right. Or is it? I bet dictators don't lose much sleep agonising over whether they are right... Thank you Ben also. You see that's the problem. How can one be sure one's opinion IS soundly based, when it is just an opinion? I'm probably not as bad as I indicated. There are, of course, things I firmly believe in and feel strongly about and I do in the end make up my mind because you have to. I don't bear the impression of the last person to sit on me. I was just attempting to explain the angst I go through before coming down on one side or the other. An example from today's news. UKIP have announced that as part of their election commitment (probably academic actually) they are going to ban the burka. Now, as a feminist (see I do believe in something) I think the burka is a horrible, obnoxious garment that demeans the women who wear it and is a symbol of female oppression with, actually, no religious requirement behind it - not that a religious requirement would justify it anyway. When I worked in Islamic countries I respected their culture and wore a headscarf as the polite thing to do. So I believe Islamic women should respect our culture and refrain from wearing the burka in a country where it is the norm for people to communicate with the face uncovered. So, reading that, you would think I would be for a ban wouldn't you? True I would like to see it disappear from the face of the earth but would I ban it? Probably not, because I don't believe in imposing MY view about dress on someone else. After all, it is only MY opinion. I chose that example simply because I read about it today. that's because i now know who i am. of course, i have this serious inferiority complex because i am so much more wonderful than i think i am. anyway, i can be certain of my positions because i have been on the other side of quite a few of them. a good example is the death penalty. until i was forty, i was as adamantly opposed to the death penalty as i now support it. it took a long time, but i finally realized that it was an untenable and totally illogical position, and changed. i cannot be pigeon holed. on some issues, i am further to the right than dick cheney. on some issues, i am further to the left than ralph nader. but, on NO position am i EVER in the center. contrary to what too many people like to think, EVERYTHING is black or white. there is no shades of grey. as i have explained before, you simply cannot have something that is equally good and bad, right and wrong, at the same time, which is the ONLY thing that grey is.
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Post by firedancer on Jan 16, 2010 21:17:48 GMT
Or it may just be possible that you were right the first time? Ah! The zeal of the convert I am with you on one thing though - I can't be pigeon-holed either. I am to the right on some things, to the left on others. I have difficulty understanding how anyone could buy into the whole package of any political party (for example) The difference is that I retain enough open-mindedness to accept the possibility that I may be wrong.....(of course, as you implied, if you have too much open-mindedness there is always the possibility that your brains fall out). Sorry Iamjumbo - I do tease. I shall go and sit on the naughty step.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 16, 2010 23:26:44 GMT
Or it may just be possible that you were right the first time? Ah! The zeal of the convert I am with you on one thing though - I can't be pigeon-holed either. I am to the right on some things, to the left on others. I have difficulty understanding how anyone could buy into the whole package of any political party (for example) The difference is that I retain enough open-mindedness to accept the possibility that I may be wrong.....(of course, as you implied, if you have too much open-mindedness there is always the possibility that your brains fall out). Sorry Iamjumbo - I do tease. I shall go and sit on the naughty step. there is no need to. it is very true that too much open mindedness leads to airheadedness. those things that i have confirmed as being true, i have remained steadfast in. once i discover that i am wrong, i change it. thus, i can now be certain in my beliefs. you are halfway there. there can be NO political party, nor any other group that is totally right on everything. that is why you pick that which is right from each group.
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Post by firedancer on Jan 17, 2010 12:59:43 GMT
Or as the school reports famously say....'with a little more effort, could do better' .
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jan 17, 2010 15:33:48 GMT
Hi FireDancer! My mother always said "He who hesitates is lost!" On the Stuttgart train station there is also a quotation from the philosopher Hegel saying "The Fear of making a Mistake is the Mistake itself!
On the other hand i used to play on a chess team and many of my most bitter loses came when i didn't use the time neccesary to decide on and make the right move. In a chess game you have 2 hours to make 40 moves and this time should be used! BUT in real life we often don't have that time and indecisiveness is usually the wrong state of mind to be in.
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Post by firedancer on Jan 17, 2010 17:08:38 GMT
Ha ha Anna - your post sounds like you can't really make up your mind. Seriously, I know what you mean. Reading other posters' views I realise that I am not really indecisive. It only applies to philosophical debates where hypothetical decisions are concerned and one is tossing the arguments back and forth. Mostly, if you are going to be fair-minded it is difficult not to see some virtue in aspects of very differing points of view. In real life I would hardly have chosen to work in a field where decisiveness in the face of tight deadlines was sine qua non if I were truly indecisive. I've never had a problem making decisions where my work or personal life were concerned. So I probably overstated my case in my first post.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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karma:
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jan 17, 2010 17:41:43 GMT
Dearest FireDancer! If i have a conviction i can be very forceful and decisive, although i often try to formulate my conviction gently, if i wish to be persuasive! The Fairy Tale of the Sun and the Wind is one of the fairy tales that i would tell children entrusted to my care.
The sun and the wind saw a traveler wearing a heavy coat and made a bet between them as to who could get the traveler to take off his coat first. The wind tried first and with a violent gust almost blew the traveler off his feet. The traveler however bundled up his jacket tighter and tighter. Then the sun tried gently and warmly shining down on the traveler. The traveler gradually relaxed and took off his coat.
I confess i'm not always soft and gentle, but that is generally the best way to proceed!
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 17, 2010 18:03:36 GMT
Or as the school reports famously say....'with a little more effort, could do better' . yup. as long as the little red engine keeps chugging away, it will get to the top of the hill
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 17, 2010 18:06:40 GMT
Hi FireDancer! My mother always said "He who hesitates is lost!" On the Stuttgart train station there is also a quotation from the philosopher Hegel saying "The Fear of making a Mistake is the Mistake itself!
On the other hand i used to play on a chess team and many of my most bitter loses came when i didn't use the time neccesary to decide on and make the right move. In a chess game you have 2 hours to make 40 moves and this time should be used! BUT in real life we often don't have that time and indecisiveness is usually the wrong state of mind to be in.first of all hon, you NEVER want to play defensive chess. the idea is for your move to force your opponent into making the move that you wish him to. you need to plan your move, and your reactive move, each time, which can be time consuming
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 17, 2010 18:08:09 GMT
Ha ha Anna - your post sounds like you can't really make up your mind. Seriously, I know what you mean. Reading other posters' views I realise that I am not really indecisive. It only applies to philosophical debates where hypothetical decisions are concerned and one is tossing the arguments back and forth. Mostly, if you are going to be fair-minded it is difficult not to see some virtue in aspects of very differing points of view. In real life I would hardly have chosen to work in a field where decisiveness in the face of tight deadlines was sine qua non if I were truly indecisive. I've never had a problem making decisions where my work or personal life were concerned. So I probably overstated my case in my first post. does that mean that you were actually asking a rhetorical question, with an eye toward entrapping folks?
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 17, 2010 18:10:09 GMT
Dearest FireDancer! If i have a conviction i can be very forceful and decisive, although i often try to formulate my conviction gently, if i wish to be persuasive! The Fairy Tale of the Sun and the Wind is one of the fairy tales that i would tell children entrusted to my care.
The sun and the wind saw a traveler wearing a heavy coat and made a bet between them as to who could get the traveler to take off his coat first. The wind tried first and with a violent gust almost blew the traveler off his feet. The traveler however bundled up his jacket tighter and tighter. Then the sun tried gently and warmly shining down on the traveler. The traveler gradually relaxed and took off his coat.
I confess i'm not always soft and gentle, but that is generally the best way to proceed! damm hon, is that directed at moi? there are some folks who say that i am not soft and gentle.
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