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Post by Big Lin on Jan 13, 2010 23:38:57 GMT
What can we do about immigration?
Are the people who want an 'open door' policy right?
Or those who want a total ban?
Or those who want stronger controls but not a complete ban?
What effects do immigrants have on our culture?
Are they good or bad?
Does increased immigration lead to increased crime?
What about the strain on resources like the National Health?
And so on.
You get the picture - I'm sure there will be plenty of responses.
I'm going to attach a poll focusing on one of the issues but others will probably follow if the discussion develops well.
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Post by mouse on Jan 14, 2010 8:52:55 GMT
would have liked more than one option on the poll.. a total ban for 5 yrs till we see who is and who isnt in the country deport all those who came with no passport deport all those who have committd crime deport all those who have had no work for the past 5 yrs deport all ilegals deport all those with no right to remain make spoken and writen english mandatory no benefits to any immigrant for a period of 7 yrs no immigrant alloed into the country without a job and home to go to and insurence to cover medical costs[sorted out by woulld be employer] no asylum seekers except in rare and unusual circumstances
immigration certainly apears to lead to more crime the strain on the nhs is ruining it for every one and is very easy to see just a few quick thoughts...unfettered immigration has brought us no benefits and done us considerable damage..socially..finacially and mentally to say nothing of criminally
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Post by Alpha Hooligan on Jan 14, 2010 12:47:15 GMT
What Mouse said is absolutely spot on.
If we did that, those of you who dislike the BNP would have the pleasure of watching them disappear totally.
Those new-comers who were left over and allowed to stay legally and under our rules would be far more welcome/tolerated (due to public faith in a system that worked for the benefit of the country and the people who are actually native to this country).
Immigrants wouldn't be viewed as parasites/scroungers/invaders...they would be viewed as people who had met the strict rules to enter our country.
AH
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jan 14, 2010 13:04:21 GMT
In Finnland all these asylum seekers and non-employable immigrants are simply put in fenced in settlements or camps, where they're fed, clothed and don't have the oppurtunity to commit crimes beyond these settlements.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 14, 2010 14:10:03 GMT
everyone is totally correct, but everyone left out the most important requirement. ALL immigrants come into a country because they don't want to be in their own. they have NO right bringing that country with them. EVERY immigrant, without exception, should be required to totally assimilate into the culture of the country that they are entering. they should NOT be allowed to practice any wvestige of their home culture outside the privacy of their own home, or church.
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Post by mouse on Jan 14, 2010 14:31:11 GMT
""Immigrants wouldn't be viewed as parasites/scroungers/invaders..."" absolutely alpha...i know peeps who are a delight..hard working..honest etc etc who have emigrated here and they are as sick and tired of it all as we are....and they have a great deal to lose because of our wastes of space governments and liberal wets attitudes to the crims..scroungers and useless they have let in to our country and deliberately too
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Post by Ben Lomond on Jan 14, 2010 15:10:49 GMT
Debates on this subject usually degenerate into accusations of racism, when the real concern should simply be on numbers, and the capacity of the host nation to absorb those wishing to come. For make no mistake, as long as the west offers free housing and welfare to all comers, the flow can only increase. If one factors in the acute poverty of three quarters of the world, the only thing preventing a complete swamping of Europe, and America, is lack of opportunity of travel for the majority. This will not always be the case, however, especially if global warming makes large tracts of the earths surface uninhabitable.
But dealing with the UK, we are a smallish and already overcrowded nation full to capacity, and yet the flow of immigration continues largely unabated. We have always welcomed the oppressed to these shores. However, in the past this has usually meant one off incidents, such as the Hugenots, the Jews, and more recently the Ugandan Asians---flows of immigration limited both in numbers and in duration. However, the present immigration problems are constant and ongoing, year in, year out, and show no signs of abating in the foreseeable future, either.
It is not simply a question of opening our doors to all comers. A certain percentage can readily be absorbed, but when the numbers exceed the recognised norm, then pressures on infrastructure (on schools, on hospitals, on housing, and on medicine) build to breaking point. Add to this the pressure on social cohesion, and the very real possibility of disorder, then it must surely be apparent to the most liberal amongst us that we have already reached the tipping point, and that stringent controls are long overdue. We are now the most over crowded nation in the EU, but ALL European countries are facing the same problems. The world is on the move; in one way only, and things can only get a lot worse.
I have quoted Milton Friedman before, and make no apologies for repeating his words. He said, "You cannot simultaneously have free immigration and a welfare state. I would like to see a world where you could have open immigration-----but stop kidding yourselves". To which I can only say "amen"!
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Post by riotgrrl on Jan 14, 2010 15:54:55 GMT
There is a problem in looking at the UK as a whole. While it seems that the South East is in danger of sinking due to the demand put upon public services by new immigrants, here in Scotland we are reliant on new immigrants to end our depopulation problem. And we have space for new towns, etc. (which you don't have in the SE.)
Of course, most of the 'immigrants' to Scotland come from England (1 in 10 of the Scottish population was born in England) but, generally, my point is that immigration is not a single issue UK-wide.
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Post by riotgrrl on Jan 14, 2010 15:57:43 GMT
Also, I think we have to distinguish between two separate issues - immigration, and public services.
So long as our NHS is freely available at the point of need, regardless of immigration status, we are going to continue to attract health tourists. I know of one American woman who entered into a sham marriage with a Scottish boy because she had a long-term health condition requiring ongoing treatment, which she could get free here, but not in the USA.
My older daughter is type 1 diabetic, and I would move heaven and earth to move to a nation which provided free treatment and drugs for this condition if I didn't already live in the UK.
I suppose other benefits, such as welfare benefits, are also relevant here.
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Post by mouse on Jan 14, 2010 16:18:05 GMT
"" I suppose other benefits, such as welfare benefits, are also relevant here."" non of which should be available unless you have lived and worked in the uk for 7yrs all new commers should be obliged to have private insurance ...
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Post by randomvioce on Jan 14, 2010 16:58:51 GMT
Also, I think we have to distinguish between two separate issues - immigration, and public services. So long as our NHS is freely available at the point of need, regardless of immigration status, we are going to continue to attract health tourists. I know of one American woman who entered into a sham marriage with a Scottish boy because she had a long-term health condition requiring ongoing treatment, which she could get free here, but not in the USA. My older daughter is type 1 diabetic, and I would move heaven and earth to move to a nation which provided free treatment and drugs for this condition if I didn't already live in the UK. I suppose other benefits, such as welfare benefits, are also relevant here. Again it cannot be as simple as that either, because, this woman will end up being a contributer to our society, either directly or indirectly, even if it is not her intention to do so. That will make her no different to any other immigrant here legally or otherwiswe. Of course being an American, no-one will be the least bit concerned that her marriage is a sham or that she will be a drain on our society either. Given that we are looking at ways of 'defending marriage' Are we to check these people's bed clothes for stains that prove they are a true married couple? The vast majority of post visa stayers are Aussies/New Zealanders who overstay, but you will not get support to have a five year ban on these people from comming in, nor do the Daily Mail tell you about the 500,000 French living here either. Wonder why there are 'too many' Poles, but not 'too many French'? Could it be that there are more DM readers living in French houses than Polish homes?
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Post by mouse on Jan 14, 2010 22:00:17 GMT
""The vast majority of post visa stayers are Aussies/New Zealanders who overstay, but you will not get support to have a five year ban on these people from comming in, nor do the Daily Mail tell you about the 500,000 French living here either.""" if they are blagging off the state send em packing....if they havent got jobs or some where to live send em packing.. and the vast majority of ilegals are ??
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Post by riotgrrl on Jan 14, 2010 23:33:16 GMT
""The vast majority of post visa stayers are Aussies/New Zealanders who overstay, but you will not get support to have a five year ban on these people from comming in, nor do the Daily Mail tell you about the 500,000 French living here either.""" if they are blagging off the state send em packing....if they havent got jobs or some where to live send em packing.. and the vast majority of ilegals are ?? I'd have said that 'post visa stayers' WERE 'illegals' . . . or are you talking about people of a different colour?
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Post by mouse on Jan 15, 2010 10:32:34 GMT
I'd have said that 'post visa stayers' WERE 'illegals' . . . or are you talking about people of a different colour? ""
ilegals who came/come in without passports....be they white..black...brown..grey or shades of blue....i think you know what an ilegal is as well as i do as aposed to an over stayer of any shade
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Post by mouse on Jan 15, 2010 10:34:57 GMT
""here in Scotland we are reliant on new immigrants to end our depopulation problem. And we have space for new towns, etc. (which you don't have in the SE.)""
i am sure at some point you will get more than enough...the eu says europe has to have at least 40 million more
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Post by riotgrrl on Jan 15, 2010 11:30:34 GMT
""here in Scotland we are reliant on new immigrants to end our depopulation problem. And we have space for new towns, etc. (which you don't have in the SE.)"" i am sure at some point you will get more than enough...the eu says europe has to have at least 40 million more The EU has said that Europe has to have at least 40 million more immigrants? ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/immigration/fsj_immigration_intro_en.htmThis link summarises all the key decisions made on immigation at an EU level . . can you point me to the one which includes the controversial 40 million figure?
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Post by riotgrrl on Jan 15, 2010 11:34:43 GMT
I'd have said that 'post visa stayers' WERE 'illegals' . . . or are you talking about people of a different colour? "" ilegals who came/come in without passports....be they white..black...brown..grey or shades of blue....i think you know what an ilegal is as well as i do as aposed to an over stayer of any shade By definition, of course, we have no way of knowing how many people have entered the country illegally (as opposed to overstaying). However, the good news of course is that illegal immigrants place little burden on public services, as they cannot claim benefits, register for GPs, apply for social housing, etc. etc. The only likely pull they will have on the public purse is treatment at A&E when relevant. I'm not sure if they can register their children at schools or not, but no doubt that will be tightened soon if it hasn't already. It must be a grim existence being an illegal immigrant. They must live very much at the margins of society. Of course, illegal immigrants have nothing to with immigration policy. They will come or not come independent of it. So they're a bit of a red herring in this debate.,
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 15, 2010 11:48:27 GMT
""here in Scotland we are reliant on new immigrants to end our depopulation problem. And we have space for new towns, etc. (which you don't have in the SE.)"" i am sure at some point you will get more than enough...the eu says europe has to have at least 40 million more which is, as is the case of everything, without exception, that the eu says, abject stupidity
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Post by mouse on Jan 15, 2010 12:21:20 GMT
[ This link summarises all the key decisions made on immigation at an EU level . . can you point me to the one which includes the controversial 40 million figure? i posted it on another site... there it was in all its glory and still is...but i cant be bothered to look for it.....how is forty million controversial stupid...damning...wrong...but hardly controverial the EU isnt known for its care or concerns of its citizens...so anything is to be expected from such a greedy and corrupt organisation....
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Post by mouse on Jan 15, 2010 12:30:33 GMT
""" However, the good news of course is that illegal immigrants place little burden on public services, .""" there is no good news when it comes to ilegals...black economy..crime..putting others out of work blah blah etc etc,,and when caught of course the added expences incured for feeding/housing/courts etc them untill our precious govs decide they cannot eject them blah blah
""It must be a grim existence being an illegal immigrant. They must live very much at the margins of society."" yup my heart bleeds.....and then you get yet another amnesty and bingo no one asked them to be ilegals..no one wants them to be ilegals..and there wouldnt be quite so many if they were actually shipped out when found
""Of course, illegal immigrants have nothing to with immigration policy. They will come or not come independent of it.
So they're a bit of a red herring in this debate.,"" and of course ilegals DO HAVE TO DO with the immigration policy..every thing to do with immigration is part and parcel of the immigration question.....because its all part and parcel of the same problem.....but they wouldnt come in quite such numbers if we had harder penalties..harder consequences...like taking them back to country of origin ie square one
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