|
Post by gabriel on Oct 16, 2010 12:47:16 GMT
Then along comes Jack. And the whole thing blows up. You know, Jack probably did more to help the people in the East End than any politician ever did. Think about it. He made the pollies realise just how bad living there was. I respectfully disagree Gabe! I don't think jtr played a role in raising the awareness of Whitechapel's poverty, beyond the rippologist circle! It would also be wrong to say that gangsters like Al Capone, Bugs Moran, etc. raised the awareness of Chicago's impoverished people. I would give credit to the largely unnamed people who cared and a changing "spirit of the times". And I respectfully disagree with you Anna. Jeez, that's unusual! Jack was a catalyst, a major catalyst towards improving conditions in the East End. Change came and it came slowly, but Jack did a lot to make Londoners aware of just how wretched an existence these people had. Major Booth and his Sallies did their bit. I've been off posting elsewhere about Jack. I'm also into Capone and the Chicago Underworld. Wanna start another thread? Meanwhile, Jack rules. For me. Always will. But I can be sidelined.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 17, 2010 5:37:40 GMT
Really Gabe, that's like saying serial killers are good for society. I truly detest the cult status that some serial killers have wrongfully obtained. As soon as these predators are arrested i do everything i can to trivalize these evildoers. No name, no face, no ethnicity, religion or even gender, not even a part of humanity. Their only value to society is to serve as deterring examples to potential predators at large via their hopefully speedy execution.
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Oct 17, 2010 11:00:53 GMT
If you really think that I'm promoting SK's then you wouldn't have engaged in this discussion for so long, now would you? And you know I'm not so it's a moot point.
If you don't want to discuss Jack, then don't. It's your choice.
Jack was like a culmination in a social upheaval that had been gathering momentum for a long time. Trafalgar Sq was during Warren's watch and one of the reasons he wasn't liked by the working people or the police, to be truthful. He should have stayed in the Army.
It's been posted before that Jack was a blessing to the people of the East End. He brought attention to their dreadful living conditions. There are even people who think he was a merciful killer because he throttled his victims 1st before mutilating them. Myself, I don't go that far.
You only have to look at photos of the times to see how appalling life must have been like in Whitechapel. Kids in the middle of Winter with no shoes. Crime and disease were rampant. It really was, as Jack London called it, The Abyss.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 29, 2010 6:44:55 GMT
Hi Gabe, I react very allergically to even the shadow of the shadow of an attempt intentionally or unintentionally bestow a serial killer with any form of cult status. As for the opinion that some may hold that jtr may have created awareness concerning the horrific poverty in WhiteChapel i counter with the assertion that only the victims, if anyone in this case could have created this awareness!
A play entitled "WhiteChapel Roses" putting the attention fully on the victims of this unknown murderer will be presented on Nov. 6. www.docklands24.co.uk/what-s-on/theatre/roses_of_whitechapel_offers_different_take_on_ripper_murders_1_706113 QUOTE: Roses of Whitechapel offers different take on Ripper murders Marina Thomas Tuesday, 26 October, 2010 A POST-mortem examination of the deaths Jack the Ripper’s five victims promises to be a gruesome and gripping play at Greenwich Playhouse next week. The Roses of Whitechapel opens on November 3 and is celebrating it's 10th anniversary. It uncovers the stories of Jack the Ripper’s female victims and looks at the deaths from their perspective. Writers Jonathan Kaufman and Martin Stiff spent months researching the facts of the case, discovering that far more is known about the women victims than the unknown world’s first serial killer. Kaufman told The Docklands: “It is a very powerful play and captures people’s imagination, especially women’s. You come away feeling moved, it is very intriguing, The characters are all very different but are all intertwined in each other’s lives. It challenges and questions you as we are fascinated by the puzzle of the murders but we are not sure exactly why. “Often the victims of serial killers are forgotten and we wanted to change that by telling their stories.”The play also looks at the media and its role in reporting on the world’s first serial killer in a way which is no different from 21st century red tops. The women also play police, bystanders and the media after they are killed and Jack is elusive throughout the whole show acting as a ghostly presence on stage. The play runs until November 6. For tickets see www.galleontheatre.co.uk or call 020 8858 9256.
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Oct 30, 2010 13:12:59 GMT
I'm not interested in making a cult to Jack.
Never have been.
I'm just interested in trying to work out why he did what he did.
My post from Oct 16.
If you really think that I'm promoting SK's then you wouldn't have engaged in this discussion for so long, now would you? And you know I'm not so it's a moot point.
If you don't want to discuss Jack, then don't. It's your choice.
Jack was like a culmination in a social upheaval that had been gathering momentum for a long time. Trafalgar Sq was during Warren's watch and one of the reasons he wasn't liked by the working people or the police, to be truthful. He should have stayed in the Army.
It's been posted before that Jack was a blessing to the people of the East End. He brought attention to their dreadful living conditions. There are even people who think he was a merciful killer because he throttled his victims 1st before mutilating them. Myself, I don't go that far.
You only have to look at photos of the times to see how appalling life must have been like in Whitechapel. Kids in the middle of Winter with no shoes. Crime and disease were rampant. It really was, as Jack London called it, The Abyss.
I'm fascinated by Jack. Absolutely. Why would he suddenly burst out of the conventional society he lived in and do what he did?
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 31, 2010 7:03:25 GMT
Hello Gabriel, When SK's are at large or never caught i'm interested in tracking them and looking at the mistakes that allowed them to get away. As you correctly stated earlier SK's are like animals and they leave a trial to follow. When SK's are apprehended they should be tried, convicted and quickly eliminated from society.
When the name and face of a SK become the name and face to remember and the victims are at best secondary, if not forgotten then evil has triumphed.
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Nov 1, 2010 10:38:38 GMT
Hello Gabriel, When SK's are at large or never caught i'm interested in tracking them and looking at the mistakes that allowed them to get away. As you correctly stated earlier SK's are like animals and they leave a trial to follow. When SK's are apprehended they should be tried, convicted and quickly eliminated from society.
When the name and face of a SK become the name and face to remember and the victims are at best secondary, if not forgotten then evil has triumphed.
But that's not the case with Jack. Never will be. Casebook (on which I post) is a veritable history of Jack's victims. We don't forget them and we don't marginalise them. I'm sorry their lives were cut short by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I can't say more than that. But I, and hundreds of thousands like myself, find Jack utterly fascinating. I really do want to know why Jack existed, why he killed and why he disappeared.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 1, 2010 12:55:59 GMT
Hi Gabe! Curiousity is understandable, but it's unhealthy when one really tries to get into the heads of evil mindsets. The statement: "Try to get into the head of the demon and the demon gets you!" is very true! That was in the traumatizing, but realistic Nikolaus Cage film "8mm".
I was creeped out when i saw a website poll entitled: "Who's your favorite serial killer?". From my perspective that's like asking "Who's your favorite demon from hell?" The same is true when i see books entitled "Famous Serial Killers". I avoid applying any "superlatives" to SK's that make them "signifant" or "unique" and that includes "infamous" as well.
I'll participate in tracking them and lobbying for their rapid disposal when apprended. I rather like the old Soviet method of making them disappear as shown in the film "Citizen X". That SK was much worse than jtr, but the Soviets never gave the killer a chance to obtain "celebrity status"!
I do support the wish that jtr would be identified! I would like to see the ripper industry go out of business and that would happen, if the real ripper was identified-no prince, famous author, political idealist, psychologically interesting person, etc.. Nope! Just a banal, murdering egoist. I'm sure we agree there!
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Nov 2, 2010 7:34:33 GMT
But anna, understanding why SK's do what they do, has to help in identifying them early and stopping them.
I don't wish to put them on a pedestal or create copycats. It's only by understanding why they go postal that we can see the triggers in others.
Dahmer, Bundy, Sutcliffe and all the others all share common features. If you look at their life stories, you can see they're all heading for the same place.
Except for Jack. Because we don't know who he was or what his life was really like. We can make educated guesses based on other SK's and I think we are pretty well correct.
But I still want to know who Jack was.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 2, 2010 8:31:38 GMT
But anna, understanding why SK's do what they do, has to help in identifying them early and stopping them. I don't wish to put them on a pedestal or create copycats. It's only by understanding why they go postal that we can see the triggers in others. Dahmer, Bundy, Sutcliffe and all the others all share common features. If you look at their life stories, you can see they're all heading for the same place. Except for Jack. Because we don't know who he was or what his life was really like. We can make educated guesses based on other SK's and I think we are pretty well correct. But I still want to know who Jack was. Sure Gabe when tracking a wild animal it's good to have an idea what kind of wild animal it is. We don't have to try to think like say a wolf or a crocodile to understand how to find the animal. It's not neccesary to try to get into the head of the animal! Just observe and examine the clues that are left behind.
The "profilers", who think they can learn from incarcerated serial killers are wasting their time. Some "profilers" look for "causes", like b*ndy's relationship to his grandfather. What a load of bunk and a waste of time! SK's simply have developped an appetite for evil or were born evil. The profilers who publish the lies or spin that SK's tell them in prison make better money, when they publish books, but they just muddy the waters. Profiler Dr. Maurice Godwin rises above this "talk to the animal" nonsense that other profilers fall for. Just follow the evidence and patterns. www.amazon.co.uk/Tracker-Hunting-Down-Serial-Killers/dp/1560256346/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288685331&sr=1-7
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Nov 2, 2010 8:45:53 GMT
No. I totally disagree with you.
'Evil' is what people do, whether they choose to or because they are patterned to do it. Animals can't 'do' evil. They have no rational thought. Nor can they tell right from wrong. They just do because they follow their instincts.
Jack wasn't an animal. He was a human being as are all SK's.
They all have thought patterns and they all have reasons why they do what they do.
That's why we need to understand them so we can recognise the patterns and stop them from occurring.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 2, 2010 8:51:43 GMT
No Gabe! I don't believe in the "humanity" of SK's! They only bring more deception, when given the chance.
bible.cc/matthew/13-38.htm QUOTE: The field is the world; the good seeds are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Nov 2, 2010 8:54:26 GMT
anna, you're talking morality. I'm talking psychology.
I'm not arguing that Jack was wrong. At all.
But we still need to understand why they do what they do to stop those in the future.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 2, 2010 9:39:27 GMT
anna, you're talking morality. I'm talking psychology. I'm not arguing that Jack was wrong. At all. But we still need to understand why they do what they do to stop those in the future. No Gabe! It's not neccesarily morality. The point is that a SK as a rule is not "one of us". They are to be tracked down, segregated, trivalized and disposed of like toxic waste. Demons with a human form. I take Christ's parable of the good seeds and the bad seeds very literally!
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Nov 2, 2010 11:52:30 GMT
anna, you're talking morality. I'm talking psychology. I'm not arguing that Jack was wrong. At all. But we still need to understand why they do what they do to stop those in the future. No Gabe! It's not neccesarily morality. The point is that a SK as a rule is not "one of us". They are to be tracked down, segregated, trivalized and disposed of like toxic waste. Demons with a human form. I take Christ's parable of the good seeds and the bad seeds very literally!
Wow anna you're going way out of the box as far as I'm concerned. And you're doing this to shut this thread down. I get it. Pity. But if anyone else is interested in discussing Jack...
|
|
|
Post by riotgrrl on Nov 2, 2010 12:13:26 GMT
Surely SKs, like all criminals, are just us in different circumstances?
Criminals and murderers don't have different brain make-ups. They're not genetically different. They're the same as us in all physical ways.
But, for whatever reason, something in their past or their culture or whatever causes them to deviate.
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Nov 2, 2010 12:26:16 GMT
Surely SKs, like all criminals, are just us in different circumstances? Criminals and murderers don't have different brain make-ups. They're not genetically different. They're the same as us in all physical ways. But, for whatever reason, something in their past or their culture or whatever causes them to deviate. Basically, Jack was the same as us. But you see, he was really the 1st honest to God SK the world ever came across. There were others before him but he was the 1st identified. There was something in his brain wired differently to ordinary people. And that's why he's interesting. Why did he mutilate? Why did he hunt when he did? Why did he take his trophies? And most important of all. Why did he stop?
|
|
|
Post by Wonder Woman on Nov 2, 2010 14:29:56 GMT
No Gabe! It's not neccesarily morality. The point is that a SK as a rule is not "one of us". They are to be tracked down, segregated, trivalized and disposed of like toxic waste. Demons with a human form. I take Christ's parable of the good seeds and the bad seeds very literally!
Wow anna you're going way out of the box as far as I'm concerned. And you're doing this to shut this thread down. I get it. Pity. But if anyone else is interested in discussing Jack... I think for some people, it's easier to dehumanize murderers. If they aren't one of us, it makes it easier to do them harm. If they're not human, anything cruel doesn't necessarily apply either and self-righteousness can stay intact. We are, afterall, better than the 'animals' we love hating.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 2, 2010 15:47:18 GMT
Wow anna you're going way out of the box as far as I'm concerned. And you're doing this to shut this thread down. I get it. Pity. But if anyone else is interested in discussing Jack... I think for some people, it's easier to dehumanize murderers. If they aren't one of us, it makes it easier to do them harm. If they're not human, anything cruel doesn't necessarily apply either and self-righteousness can stay intact. We are, afterall, better than the 'animals' we love hating. No Wonder Woman, Hating is wrong too! We shouldn't feel any human emotions towards SK's or in any way bond with them. A hate bond is also a bond.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 2, 2010 15:59:42 GMT
No Gabe! It's not neccesarily morality. The point is that a SK as a rule is not "one of us". They are to be tracked down, segregated, trivalized and disposed of like toxic waste. Demons with a human form. I take Christ's parable of the good seeds and the bad seeds very literally!
Wow anna you're going way out of the box as far as I'm concerned. And you're doing this to shut this thread down. I get it. Pity. But if anyone else is interested in discussing Jack... No Gabe! I'm not trying to shut this thread down. Just presenting my honest belief. Whether SK's have crossed the point of no return or were always beyond the point of no return is a debatable point. They don't become "celebrities", "famous" or even "infamous" in my book. Actually i don't feel hatred towards them either anymore than i would feel hatred towards a cancer cell.
|
|