♫anna♫
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Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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karma:
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 30, 2010 18:19:27 GMT
Dearest Riotgrrl! I can't choose the titles of the YouTube videos! It's true Christ never mentioned homosexuality in the Bible. Homosexuals should however just get used to fact that if they ask for an honest opinion about their life style it won't always be positive.
Why should people have to lie to avoid persecution?
As for burkas or nudity for that matter..that's the subject of a different thread! You chose the title of this thread, and the title you chose was a lie. You lied that a school counsellor was like a Careers Guidance thing. And you fail to understand that seeking counselling is NOT seeking someone's personal opinion. My experience with school counselors has been that they are there to guide the academic and choice of a future profession. It seems other counselors may have more to counsel! How can you say that the thread title is deceitful?
We don't have all the facts of this case from A to Z! I give these students the benefit of a doubt and don't believe they were spouting hatred towards homosexuals! So it's a free speech issue! Having a negative opinion of homosexuality is in my eyes no worse than having a negative opinion towards cigarette smoking!
I feel too students seeking advice should have the freedom to choose between counselors and a homosexual should be free to choose a pro homosexual counselor! Diversity YES! Why have the same party line counselors accross the board!
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 30, 2010 18:31:49 GMT
How can you say that the thread title is deceitful? [/color][/size][/quote] Because 1 - She doesn't face explusion, she has been asked to work on her awareness, and, 2 - Because it's not on account of her views on homosexuality; it's on account of her allowing those views to infect her professional practice against the ethical guidelines of her chosen profession. So yes, the thread title is more than a bit deceitful.
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Post by randomvioce on Jul 30, 2010 18:41:15 GMT
Homosexuals should however just get used to fact that if they ask for an honest opinion about their life style it won't always be positive.
She is not being asked for her 'opinion', her opinion is not the issue. The fact she is a bigot is. If she cannot keep her bigotted views to herself then she needs to find another job.
Why should people have to lie to avoid persecution?
The word is sacked!!!! Why do you continue to crave victimhood for this nutcase? She is not being 'persecuted', she is unable to do they because she is unable to accept homosexuals. If anyone cannot complete the tasks at work to the standard required, they get the boot! WHY SHOULD THIS WOMAN BE ANY DIFFERENT?
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Post by randomvioce on Jul 30, 2010 18:47:20 GMT
Having a negative opinion of homosexuality is in my eyes no worse than having a negative opinion towards cigarette smoking!
Kind of makes the point for us. To equate being homosexual with being a smoker proves what I have said. These Christains are too backward to be allowed near normal people. I have no sympathy with Christains who get sacked. If they do not want to join us in the 21st Century, then they have no business serving the general public. EVERY employer who boots our a christian nutcase is perfectly OK in my book.
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Post by beez0811 on Jul 30, 2010 22:22:12 GMT
Having a negative opinion of homosexuality is in my eyes no worse than having a negative opinion towards cigarette smoking!
Kind of makes the point for us. To equate being homosexual with being a smoker proves what I have said. These Christains are too backward to be allowed near normal people. I have no sympathy with Christains who get sacked. If they do not want to join us in the 21st Century, then they have no business serving the general public. EVERY employer who boots our a christian nutcase is perfectly OK in my book. As long as she isn't a crazy Westboro Baptist Church member (they and their ilk are most certainly NOT Christian!), she should be fine! Employers can't discriminate against religion. It is as if you are lumping us all into one category.
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Post by june on Jul 30, 2010 22:42:50 GMT
I don't think the university are discriminating against her religion. It's very clear to me.
You need to do X to pass the course She wants to do Y She won't pass - so she's claiming discrimination, because she denies the existence of gays and uses religion as a basis of that particular prejudice of hers.
A similar issue would be:
I am a Catholic but they wouldn't give me the job giving contraception advice. I am a member of the KKK but I could not get a job being a Immigration officer.
If your beliefs preclude you from doing the job - don't go for the job and certainly don't whine like a baby, or froth at the mouth at the potential lawsuit.
She's a scheming opportunist who does neither woman kind or Christianity any favours.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 31, 2010 5:20:21 GMT
How can you say that the thread title is deceitful? [/color][/size][/quote] Because 1 - She doesn't face explusion, she has been asked to work on her awareness, and, 2 - Because it's not on account of her views on homosexuality; it's on account of her allowing those views to infect her professional practice against the ethical guidelines of her chosen profession. So yes, the thread title is more than a bit deceitful.[/quote] "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"!! Voltaire Dearest Riotgrrl! This thread is about 2 students in the same predicament and one ( Julea Ward ) already was expelled! Again neither of us has the all the facts, but i don't see any evidence of "hate mongering" from these 2 students. Nothing has shown me that these two students can't follow ethical guidelines. They would probably refer gays to other counselors and other counselors would refer Christians to them. That's my impression anyways!
Christianity is all about forgiveness and it's very individual too. God's relationship with each of us is different! For Julea Ward and Jennifer Keeton it would probably be very unnatural to become engaged in homosexual activities and thus for them it would be very sinful.
I have homosexuality written all over my heart and God still accepts and loves me. I lovingly disagree with these two sisters in Christ about homosexuality being a choice! I'm also shocked to see that they are denied an education in a field where they wish to contribute! Calling them bigots is ludicrous!
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Post by mouse on Jul 31, 2010 6:45:53 GMT
to be honest if the criteria for joining the 21st century requires the namecalling of every one who disagrees with the prevailing fashions and whims then i am not sure i wish to join US in the 21st century its getting as bad as the witch hunts AGAINST homosexuals ever was. people have a right to hold an opinion....for or against what ever.... without being called bigots by those bigotted against those who do not toe the line on the acepted thinking every one has a right to hold what veiw they wish employers have a right to expect employees to to the job for which they are employed and paid that should be the one and only criteria.....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2010 6:58:27 GMT
Anna says: " Nothing has shown me that these two students can't follow ethical guidelines."
And that is the interesting bit in my opinion, beause neither have either of them even tried to show that they can, so far as I can tell!
Julea Ward on her video she came across as a mature and thoughtful person, but she indicated that attempts on the part of her and the college to work out a solution failed. Like you, Anna, I don't believe either are "gay haters" as has been alleged, but I can also see why their view of homosexuality could be very damaging, were they to put it into practice. Including ( if I may say so), damaging to people like yourself, given what you have told us.
Incidentally, I did take the point that you were only relaying your experiences of school counselling. In my day I believe careers advice was carried out by the cookery mistress in the lunch break...how times have changed!
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Post by mouse on Jul 31, 2010 9:00:38 GMT
Jennifer Keeton, 24, has been pursuing a master's degree in school counseling at Augusta State University since last year, but school officials have informed her that she'll be dismissed from the program unless she alters her "central religious beliefs on human nature "[Augusta State University] faculty have promised to expel Miss Keeton from the graduate Counselor Education Program not because of poor academic showing or demonstrated deficiencies in clinical performance, but simply because she has communicated both inside and outside the classroom that she holds to Christian ethical convictions on matters of human sexuality and gender identity," the 43-page lawsuit reads. Keeton's lawsuit alleges that the university's remediation plan noted Keeton's "cdisagreement in several class discussions and in written assignments with the gay and lesbian 'lifestyle,'" as well as Keeton's belief that those "lifestyles" are cases of identity confusion. "A student has a right to express their point of view in and out of class without fear or censorship or expulsion," French said. I don't think the university are discriminating against her religion. It's very clear to me. You need to do X to pass the course She wants to do Y She won't pass - If your beliefs preclude you from doing the job - don't go for the job and . but WILL her beliefe preclude her from doing her job?? this seems to be the sticking point i have re read the article...and it states that"""""" not because of poor academic showing or demonstrated deficiencies in clinical performance,""" so if her course work and clinical performance are not defiecient,, what exactly is the problem ?? the problem would apear to be that her opinions/ thoughts on paper """disagreement in several class discussions and in written assignments with the gay and lesbian 'lifestyle"" and in verbal discussions the problem are ie her personal opinions and ethics stated within the classroom rather than her ability to carryout her work they have NOTHING it would seem.. to go on that she would bring her personal belifes/opinions to bear in carrying out work assigned to her in employment... this is a sticky road to go down and quite a dangerous one imo...for she is guilty of nothing but having an opinion...she has been honest and open that ethicly she doesnt aprove of homosexuality... the case is not proved that she would be biased against homosexual in practise....so far she is guilty of nothing except failing to follow the party line thinking of the day if this thinking were to be taken through out the job market and life in general it could cause no end of problems...and take many people out of the work place...... as riot pointed out earlier in this discussion with her friend in social services we dont all believe what our employers wish us to project...but in this case the college seems to be jumping the gun and trying to get rid of this woman purely on THE GROUNDS she doesnt think how they demand she thinks ..rather than having proof that she will not do her job
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2010 10:46:49 GMT
If that is the case, Mouse, I totally agree with you. But I suspect (from some of the other comments) that there is more to it than she wishes to reveal. And as I said in my earlier post, these woman have not once tried to explain how that they can reconcile their beliefs with the standard of work expected of them.
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Post by randomvioce on Jul 31, 2010 11:23:14 GMT
Anna, can you please explain why you appear unable to grasp this simple concept: This woman was sacked, not because of her beliefs, but because of her actions? She hates homosexuals and will not treat them fairly in accordance with her job description? She cannot function in the job she is training for and so she is out of here.
Can you please explain why that concept is not getting through? What is so difficult about this simple concept that has you flumaxed?
Let us assume a vegetarian got a job with McDonald’s but refused to serve meat to customers, instead she only wanted to sell them salad.
Let us assume that a “Christian” who did not believe in usury got a job in a bank, but never gave advice of savings or loans because they have interest attached to them.
Let us assume a man who works in a bar, but never serves women because he believes women should not drink.
None of the above would last in their jobs, because their beliefs meant they where unable to do their jobs.
ANNA, WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND?
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Post by randomvioce on Jul 31, 2010 11:34:15 GMT
people have a right to hold an opinion....for or against what ever.... without being called bigots by those bigotted against those who do not toe the line on the acepted thinking Again mouse, please make the effort to understand the issue at stake here. This has NOTHING to do with her views, this is to do with the fact that her beliefs prevent her from doing her job correctly and to the standard that is required by her employers. She cannot complete the course, therefore she is being kicked out Imagine someone who wanted to work in a shoe shop, but their beliefs prevented them from selling leather shoes, would the shoe shop be right to sack her?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2010 11:50:59 GMT
Random Voice, someone could still serve in a bar even though he believes women should not drink; he could smile and hand over the G and T with a merry quip and no-one would be the wiser. These people could, possibly, do something similar; it seems they have chosen not to.
I suspect their views are not unusual; I've already mentioned that I knew a Sikh who expressed much the same. The difference, I suppose, is that he was planning to become a lawyer, where one's own beliefs very much take second place to how one can manipulate the rules to serve your client.
Neither am I so certain as you that the women here "hate" homsexuals. I've seen nothing here that suggests that.
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 31, 2010 13:06:55 GMT
Random Voice, someone could still serve in a bar even though he believes women should not drink; he could smile and hand over the G and T with a merry quip and no-one would be the wiser. These people could, possibly, do something similar; it seems they have chosen not to. I suspect their views are not unusual; I've already mentioned that I knew a Sikh who expressed much the same. The difference, I suppose, is that he was planning to become a lawyer, where one's own beliefs very much take second place to how one can manipulate the rules to serve your client. Neither am I so certain as you that the women here "hate" homsexuals. I've seen nothing here that suggests that. I'm baffled that you should think us girls all hate gays. For a start, I can think of at least one woman member who IS gay and I also had lesbian relations when I was young. Where do you get that weird idea from?
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Post by mouse on Jul 31, 2010 13:24:24 GMT
If that is the case, Mouse, I totally agree with you. But I suspect (from some of the other comments) that there is more to it than she wishes to reveal. And as I said in my earlier post, these woman have not once tried to explain how that they can reconcile their beliefs with the standard of work expected of them. well that is how i read it skylark...and untill more evidence comes forward i guess we are all shooting in the dark anyway
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Post by mouse on Jul 31, 2010 13:30:06 GMT
She hates homosexuals and will not treat them fairly in accordance with her job description? wow...that is some asumption she hates homosexuals...err where dod that come from...how on earth do you jump to that conclusion....any one can disagree with a life style without hating those who have that life style and what indicates she would not treat them fairly ???you can disagree with some one on quite important issues and still treat them fairly where do you get these ideas from that people can be so unproffesional weird
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 31, 2010 13:41:06 GMT
She hates homosexuals and will not treat them fairly in accordance with her job description? wow...that is some asumption she hates homosexuals...err where dod that come from...how on earth do you jump to that conclusion....any one can disagree with a life style without hating those who have that life style and what indicates she would not treat them fairly ???you can disagree with some one on quite important issues and still treat them fairly where do you get these ideas from that people can be so unproffesional weird Well that's kind of the curb of the debate, the apparent unprofessionalism of this girl who is unable to hold her private views privately.
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Post by mouse on Jul 31, 2010 14:32:25 GMT
Again mouse, please make the effort to understand the issue at stake here. This has NOTHING to do with her views, this is to do with the fact that her beliefs prevent her from doing her job correctly and to the standard that is required by her employers. She cannot complete the course, therefore she is being kicked out i think i ybderstand the issue pretty well...at this moment in time they are NOT her emploers she is at college..and they say that her course work and her clinical assecments are fine...so her standards are aceptable as far as her college course are concerned.....now if her work is up to scratch it follows that is her personal views which are causing the kerfuffle..personal views which if they are not impinging on her college work should not have any bearing on the issue untill she proves that she cannot be proffesional in her attitude
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Post by mouse on Jul 31, 2010 14:35:41 GMT
wow...that is some asumption she hates homosexuals...err where dod that come from...how on earth do you jump to that conclusion....any one can disagree with a life style without hating those who have that life style and what indicates she would not treat them fairly ???you can disagree with some one on quite important issues and still treat them fairly where do you get these ideas from that people can be so unproffesional weird Well that's kind of the curb of the debate, the apparent unprofessionalism of this girl who is unable to hold her private views privately. but so far they have only come up in conversation and in writen work which it would seem has no impact on her clinical work or assecments ,,,not in her clinical or writen work which they say is up to sractch its all very confusing....
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