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Post by gabriel on Oct 15, 2009 21:45:52 GMT
We certainly don't have enough information to convict anyone of the ripper murderers. Tabloids constantly claim to reveal the ripper's identity, but i think the best we can do is narrow things down to a strong suspect or two and a number of reasonable suspects and eliminate some hysterical tabloid nonsense. George Barnett is number 5 on the suspect list i posted here a while back. I think it's absurd to claim he killed the other girls to scare his girl friend Mary Kelly off the streets. It's reasonable to examine the possibility that he murdered Mary Kelly in a copy kill fashion though, which would mean there was more than one ripper. Barnett didn't approve of Miss Kelly's prostitution and perhaps an alledged lesbian affair she was supposedly having too. True there is a lot of misinformation surrounding all the ripper suspects. No one disputes the fact that Mr. Barnett worked cleaning ( disembowling ) fish and had a dispute with Miss Kelly, which resulted in the broken window. The fact that Miss Kelly's room was locked from the inside when her body was discovered is also curious. Barnett did alledgedly possess a room key. Joseph Barnett www.casebook.org/suspects/barnett.htmlThat locked door is a big mystery in Kelly's murder. Not so much that it was locked - Jack probably put his hand back through the broken window to latch it - but that McCarthy, the owner of the building, didn't get his own key to unlock the door. I'm not aware of his offering to do that (although he may have and that fact was never recorded anywhere) nor can I find evidence that the police asked him. Which is why it's always struck me as odd that the police broke the door down later that afternoon. Surely one of them could have done what Kelly and Barnett and Jack did - hand through the broken window.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 16, 2009 5:30:34 GMT
The police were certainly careless by modern day investigating standards. Mary Kelly's liver, kidneys and uterus were left behind by the murderer in this case. Alledgedly the heart was missing. The only so-called ripper letter that i believe may be from the killer is the "From Hell" letter with the human kidney, which a doctor believed was taken from a 45 year old heavy drinking female. "Mishter Lusk" perhaps didn't like the name Jack the ripper. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Hell_letter
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Post by gabriel on Oct 16, 2009 6:45:47 GMT
Anna, that was a letter received by George Lusk, head of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee. They were local men who patrolled the streets and tried to help out however they could to catch Jack. This letter is supposedly from Jack accompanied, as you say, by a human kidney. The theory is that it was cut from Cathy Eddowes. The kidney, not the letter. I've always thought this was hoax although the kidney was human. I think it was either a set up by a medical student, or a journalist, or most likely a journalist working with a med student. You know, they were desperate to sell newspapers even back then and what better to spice up circulation than Jack sending a kidney. But if it really was Jack, IMO, he would have sent it to the police, not to a relatively unknown man. A ploy to raise newspaper sales and also, I suspect, a payback of some kind on Lusk.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 17, 2009 5:21:08 GMT
Anna, that was a letter received by George Lusk, head of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee. They were local men who patrolled the streets and tried to help out however they could to catch Jack. This letter is supposedly from Jack accompanied, as you say, by a human kidney. The theory is that it was cut from Cathy Eddowes. The kidney, not the letter. I've always thought this was hoax although the kidney was human. I think it was either a set up by a medical student, or a journalist, or most likely a journalist working with a med student. You know, they were desperate to sell newspapers even back then and what better to spice up circulation than Jack sending a kidney. But if it really was Jack, IMO, he would have sent it to the police, not to a relatively unknown man. A ploy to raise newspaper sales and also, I suspect, a payback of some kind on Lusk. It's amazing the number of so called ripper letters that were sent.. Over a thousand as i understand. The newspapers in that era were desperate and scrupulous when trying to make sales increase. I read the biography of the Irish gangster Dion O'Bannion "Guns and Roses" and he started out selling newspapers, during the Chicago newspaper war. Both the Chicago Tribune and Chicago Star hired gangsters to sell their newspapers. The rival gangsters attacked not only each other on the street, but readers of the rival newspaper as well. Newspaper wars were occuring all over the US and maybe in Britain too. Forging letters to increase sales then would seem to be just part of business. A weak economy really brings out the bad side!
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Post by gabriel on Oct 17, 2009 5:45:34 GMT
There's not a lot of difference from writing 'From Hell' to writing the Maybrick diary. Personally, I can think of better things to do with my time than forgery but anyway. Just shows you there are 'interesting' people to be found in any generation.
BTW, what did Lewis Carroll do to get on a Ripper wannabe list?
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 17, 2009 5:58:05 GMT
There's not a lot of difference from writing 'From Hell' to writing the Maybrick diary. Personally, I can think of better things to do with my time than forgery but anyway. Just shows you there are 'interesting' people to be found in any generation. BTW, what did Lewis Carroll do to get on a Ripper wannabe list? Lewis Carroll did absolutely nothing to make the ripper list! He was rather old in 1888 and was never known to frequent WhiteChapel. Some screwy guy with the last name Wallace felt his "Alice in Wonderland" writings were written in a code, which he broke and claims that the ripper murders are described. If you want a laugh i could post a sample, but it's not worthy of a serious discussion! Forgery is a lucrative business and you're probably right about the ripper letters being the work of profiteering journalists.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 17, 2009 6:07:16 GMT
This guy wouldn't be related to Dan Brown? Or Michael Moore? Carroll was probably smoking something illegal when he wrote about Alice and her friends but where you'd get Jack out of Through the Looking Glass is completely beyond me.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 17, 2009 6:24:58 GMT
You're asking for it Gabe! ;D Lewis Carroll was only a penname and his real name was Dodgson! I think this Richard Wallace was really screwy, but i'm sure he made money with his slanderous bunkem that only the really gullible and ignorant swallow. www.casebook.org/suspects/carroll.html QUOTE: For example he ( Wallace ) takes this passage from Dodgson's ( Lewis Carroll's ) 'Nursery Alice': 'So she wondered away, through the wood, carrying the ugly little thing with her. And a great job it was to keep hold of it, it wriggled about so. But at last she found out that the proper way was to keep tight hold of itself foot and its right ear'. and turns it into: 'She wriggled about so! But at last Dodgson and Bayne found a way to keep hold of the fat little whore. I got a tight hold of her and slit her throat, left ear to right. It was tough, wet, disgusting, too. So weary of it, they threw up - jack the Ripper.'
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Post by gabriel on Oct 17, 2009 12:33:51 GMT
You're asking for it Gabe! ;D Lewis Carroll was only a penname and his real name was Dodgson! I think this Richard Wallace was really screwy, but i'm sure he made money with his slanderous bunkem that only the really gullible and ignorant swallow. www.casebook.org/suspects/carroll.html QUOTE: For example he ( Wallace ) takes this passage from Dodgson's ( Lewis Carroll's ) 'Nursery Alice': 'So she wondered away, through the wood, carrying the ugly little thing with her. And a great job it was to keep hold of it, it wriggled about so. But at last she found out that the proper way was to keep tight hold of itself foot and its right ear'. and turns it into: 'She wriggled about so! But at last Dodgson and Bayne found a way to keep hold of the fat little whore. I got a tight hold of her and slit her throat, left ear to right. It was tough, wet, disgusting, too. So weary of it, they threw up - jack the Ripper.' I knew Carroll was a pen name but what load of cr**! However, being slightly interested in Jack !!! any possible suspetcs are always worth discussing. But not Carroll. Let's talk about witnesses. Israel Schwartz on Liz Stride. Levi on Eddowes. Same night, an hour's difference (app). Schwartz, the cops thought great. IMO, Levi and Lawende, coming down Duke St, past the Synagogue, much better witnesses. Lawende saw Eddowes and Jack. I'm absolutely convinced of that. At the edge of Church Passage. I believe he saw Jack. I've seen the murder sights. I've sat in Mitre Sq. I believe Lawende saw Jack.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 17, 2009 14:39:24 GMT
You're asking for it Gabe! ;D Lewis Carroll was only a penname and his real name was Dodgson! I think this Richard Wallace was really screwy, but i'm sure he made money with his slanderous bunkem that only the really gullible and ignorant swallow. www.casebook.org/suspects/carroll.html QUOTE: For example he ( Wallace ) takes this passage from Dodgson's ( Lewis Carroll's ) 'Nursery Alice': 'So she wondered away, through the wood, carrying the ugly little thing with her. And a great job it was to keep hold of it, it wriggled about so. But at last she found out that the proper way was to keep tight hold of itself foot and its right ear'. and turns it into: 'She wriggled about so! But at last Dodgson and Bayne found a way to keep hold of the fat little whore. I got a tight hold of her and slit her throat, left ear to right. It was tough, wet, disgusting, too. So weary of it, they threw up - jack the Ripper.' I knew Carroll was a pen name but what load of cr**! However, being slightly interested in Jack !!! any possible suspetcs are always worth discussing. But not Carroll. Let's talk about witnesses. Israel Schwartz on Liz Stride. Levi on Eddowes. Same night, an hour's difference (app). Schwartz, the cops thought great. IMO, Levi and Lawende, coming down Duke St, past the Synagogue, much better witnesses. Lawende saw Eddowes and Jack. I'm absolutely convinced of that. At the edge of Church Passage. I believe he saw Jack. I've seen the murder sights. I've sat in Mitre Sq. I believe Lawende saw Jack. Israel Schwartz alledgedly identified Kosminski, but if true maybe he witnessed some altercation that the 2 had and the ripper was nearby..Of course Kosminski is a prime suspect too!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 17, 2009 15:07:47 GMT
There are plenty of tours of the ripper murder scenes and some of them are on YouTube like this one.
Part 1 ) Part 2 )
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Post by gabriel on Oct 18, 2009 5:40:28 GMT
Anna, thanks so much for posting those youtube sites. I've watched the 1st video and looks like I'll have lots more viewing ahead. For anyone with some interest in the Ripper, these videos are easy to watch and give you a good idea of Jack's killing field. I find the old photos particularly interesting.
You're absolutely right about Kosminski. He is a serious candidate as a suspect. McNaughton named him and Swanson confirmed him. There's no getting around that kind of evidence.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 18, 2009 7:10:27 GMT
We certainly can't ignore the eyewitnesses linking Kosminski to the last minutes of Catherine Eddowes' life. Usually however psychotics, who commit murder are easily caught after their first murder. I believe that for instance the Yorkshire ripper faked his insanity-his talk about the talking Polish tombstone-a well rehearsed act-and he was committed to a more comforable psychiatric prison. I believe the ripper was a psychopath-a cold blooded evildoer, that is evil and not insane! They are good at this ability to blend in like a chameleon..I believe the ripper murdered for the thrill, sensation or "kick" and not as a payback for wrongdoings by females in his life... Kosminski expressed alledgedly a great hatred towards women, especially prostitutes! A man named Jacob Cohen claimed Kosminski threatened his sister with a knife. www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/ripper/kosminski_15.htmlThe researcher Philip Sugden found that according to hospital records Kosminski wasn't committed to the insane asylum at Colney Hatch until 1891 and not 1889 as other sources claim. Kosminski lived for 28 years in psychiatric detention and with the exception of one threatening gesture was peaceful. Kosminski's threats and verbal hatred don't really seem to translate into actions. The clear "history of evil" that i would expect from the ripper seems to be missing. Kosminski gets 2nd place on my suspect list because of the witnesses.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 18, 2009 22:06:05 GMT
As with McNaughton's three, there are problems with Druitt, Kosminiski and certainly Ostrog. I just don't believe Ostrog was a goer. There are probs with Druitt and there are certainly probls with Kosminski, chief, as you say, the timing of his incarceration and the fact that he didn't die until many years later. And I think he was mad as a hatter. Which doesn't preclude him from being Jack. I certainly think Jack's mental state would have deteriorated as the murders took place. And I think after Miller's Ct Jack would have imploded.
I can't get away from the fact that Kosminksi was recorded as a suspect by senior police. And that's a problem many researchers with far more knowledge of the subject and access to greater resources than I have, have had to contend with.
As to why prostitutes. Well, I think Jack hated women and prostitutes were/are so vulnerable. But you could also argue that Jack was after easy prey and there were so many of them, willing to put themselves in dangerous situations so they could spend a night in one of those appalling doss houses.
Do you know, many of them slept leaning against a rope slung between 2 walls. They didn't even sleep in a bed. They slept standing up.
Not much of a life, was it?
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 18, 2009 23:49:42 GMT
I think Druitt and Ostrog can be virtually eliminated as suspects, if certain sources are accurate. It seems that Macnaghten's evidence that Druitt was the ripper was based on the utterances of some of Druitt's family members. A family plagued with mental illness! The link below also mentions the improbability of murdering Anne Chapman in WhiteChapel and making it back to Blackheath in time to play cricket as you also mentioned! www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/ripper/druitt_14.html QUOTE: There does not seem to be any real evidence as to why Macnaghten considered him a serious suspect. The only suggestion is that cryptic message of Macnaghten's: "from private information I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer." Macnaghten claimed he had destroyed all of the relevant documents, so the answer may never be known. Ostrog born in 1833 would have been 54 to 55 years old in 1888. I've never heard of a serial killer starting at that age. Ostrog didn't seem to have any history of violence.. wapedia.mobi/en/Jack_the_Ripper_suspects QUOTE: Research by author Philip Sugden discovered prison records showing that Ostrog was jailed for petty offences in France during the Ripper murders
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Post by gabriel on Oct 19, 2009 6:26:44 GMT
Ostrog, absolutely, a non starter. But Druitt....McNaughton named him. He got everything about him practically wrong except his name and the fact Druitt was fished out of the Thames in Dec'88. Why did McNaughton know about Druitt's death? Why would such a senior police official know anything about the suicide, 4 years earlier, of an unimportant barrister/teacher?
You're right about the teaser - private info from his family - what private info? If we only knew we could definitely put him in the top suspects list or put him aside. I think it's worthwhile to know about McNaughton's character. All the people who knew him and wrote down their reminiscences of him, agreed that he was not a liar or an extender of the truth. Sometimes my head spins when I try to get a grip on this case. But I'm pleased to say I'm not the only one.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 19, 2009 11:16:17 GMT
Anna, the links you gave a few days ago I'm viewing now. They are very good. Thanks. I'm most interested, as I think you'll have guessed, in why Jack did what he did and how psychological profiling could help to narrow down at least the list of suspects.
These clips are particularly good. I'll start with Part One.
If Jack was operating now, in Whitechapel, he'd be caught before the 3rd murder. And that's as much due to CCTV as anything. But DNA, profiling, TV/Net reporting. I don't think Jack would have stood a chance. But this is now and Jack was killing 121 years ago.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 19, 2009 11:19:51 GMT
So Part 2. Everything I'm hearing on these videos agrees with what I believe about Jack. No, I don't think I'm wonderful. But I think I could be a Jack hunter. If I didn't have to work and earn a living. Sigh. Anyway, back to Jack.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 19, 2009 11:33:58 GMT
Ostrog, absolutely, a non starter. But Druitt....McNaughton named him. He got everything about him practically wrong except his name and the fact Druitt was fished out of the Thames in Dec'88. Why did McNaughton know about Druitt's death? Why would such a senior police official know anything about the suicide, 4 years earlier, of an unimportant barrister/teacher? You're right about the teaser - private info from his family - what private info? If we only knew we could definitely put him in the top suspects list or put him aside. I think it's worthwhile to know about McNaughton's character. All the people who knew him and wrote down their reminiscences of him, agreed that he was not a liar or an extender of the truth. Sometimes my head spins when I try to get a grip on this case. But I'm pleased to say I'm not the only one. I suspect someone in Druitt's family ( possibly Druitt's insane mother ) contacted McNaughton about their belief that Druitt was the ripper and probably after Druitt's suicide. Again a family plagued by mental illness and suicide, but McNaughton failed to see that aspect. If a "blood splattered Druitt" killed Anna Chapman at 5:30 and managed to make it back to Blackheath at 11AM for a cricket game without a train service-that would be incredible. There's no evidence that Druitt visited WhiteChapel, which was as a rule avoided as a dangerous slum. Abberline didn't consider Druitt a suspect and was certainly aware of McNaughton's information! www.casebook.org/suspects/druitt.html QUOTE: In 1903, Inspector Abberline, gave an interview to the Pall Mall Gazette in response to a claim made in a Sunday newspaper that the Ripper was a young medical student who had drowned in the Thames. Abberline said, 'Yes, I know all about that story, but what does it amount to, simply this, soon after the last murder in Whitechapel the body of a young man was found in the Thames, but there is nothing beyond the fact that he was found at that time to incriminate him'. UNQUOTE
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Post by gabriel on Oct 19, 2009 11:50:07 GMT
Well yes, but you think Chapman is Jack or close. Abberline was looking for what? Publicity? Recognition?
No, I don't think Druitt is necessarilly Jack. But McNaughton named him. As he named Kosminski. And Kosminski was backed up by Swanson. But there are probs with Kosminski as there are probs with Druitt. And definite probs with Chapman. ;D All MO.
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