♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 19, 2009 16:47:04 GMT
Well yes, but you think Chapman is Jack or close. Abberline was looking for what? Publicity? Recognition? No, I don't think Druitt is necessarilly Jack. But McNaughton named him. As he named Kosminski. And Kosminski was backed up by Swanson. But there are probs with Kosminski as there are probs with Druitt. And definite probs with Chapman. ;D All MO. Abberline in my opinion stated his honest and professional opinion! Forensic profilers like Maurice Godwin ( www.investigativepsych.com/main.htm ) would certainly agree with him. McNaughton's investigation was full of proven mistakes, false dates, etc. and the fact that he later destroyed many of his notes is telling. I just finished viewing part 2 of your YouTube videos. I agree with the belief that the ripper could approach his victims and gain their trust. A local wierdo with no money like Kosminski, who ate from the gutter would not be capable of this. I agree that you can speculate with accuracy where the predator lives ( lived ) based on the location of the murders. The first recognized ripper murder was near Chapman's dwelling and the Tabram murder was near his shop. Sutney was apparently high risk and off limits so further murders would occur further west within the confines of WhiteChapel. When serial killers strike twice within the same time period as a rule the second murder will be further away from their residence. The night of the 2 ripper killings 1 ) Berner Street and 2 ) Mitre Square supports the Chapman=ripper theory. The fact that the ripper went towards Chapman's Buck Row residence after Eddowes murder only turning north in Ghould street to dispose of evidence is another "indicator". If Chapman had any illusions that his Polish credentials as a surgeon would be recognized in England and he could continue his surgeon's career he was certainly disappointed! As to the objection that most serial killers follow a pattern we have to understand that Chapman was an immigrant, who quite successfully seemed to change, adapt and intergrate himself into English society. In 1894 he changed his name from Severin Klosowski to George Chapman and his modus operandi for killing changed. An assumption? Of course, but then he should be suspect number 1! The pause between the murders? Other serial killers such as the BTK killer refrained from further murders for up to 18 years. As your part 2 video suggests the ripper was "disciplined"!
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Post by gabriel on Oct 20, 2009 6:39:59 GMT
OK. I'm not gonna agree about Chapman but I agree not Kosminski exactly. But someone like him. Kosminski was too far gone to have made basic decisions but then, I don't believe Jack was a mental giant either. Jack was a disorganized killer. If he hadn't started dribbling at the mouth after Miller's Ct I think he would have been found.
Anyway, Part 3.
This is so true. He didn't kill by cutting. He killed to cut.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 11:46:37 GMT
Anna, the links you gave a few days ago I'm viewing now. They are very good. Thanks. I'm most interested, as I think you'll have guessed, in why Jack did what he did and how psychological profiling could help to narrow down at least the list of suspects. If Jack was operating now, in Whitechapel, he'd be caught before the 3rd murder. And that's as much due to CCTV as anything. But DNA, profiling, TV/Net reporting. I don't think Jack would have stood a chance. But this is now and Jack was killing 121 years ago. I can't watch video clips but am suspecious of "narrowing down" a list of suspects on the basis of psychological profiles. Weren't the police criticised not long ago for putting too much reliance on this, with the result that a killer walked free for many years?
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Post by gabriel on Oct 20, 2009 12:00:41 GMT
Hi skylark. I'm not sure what case you are referring to so please let me know. I myself think psychological profiling is a great tool to help identify and catch serial killers.
Because they do follow similar patterns and similar triggers. I'm sorry you can't view videos. I couldn't until a few months ago and it drove me crazy. This is Part 4.
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Post by pumpkinette on Oct 20, 2009 14:38:54 GMT
Anna, the links you gave a few days ago I'm viewing now. They are very good. Thanks. I'm most interested, as I think you'll have guessed, in why Jack did what he did and how psychological profiling could help to narrow down at least the list of suspects. If Jack was operating now, in Whitechapel, he'd be caught before the 3rd murder. And that's as much due to CCTV as anything. But DNA, profiling, TV/Net reporting. I don't think Jack would have stood a chance. But this is now and Jack was killing 121 years ago. I can't watch video clips but am suspecious of "narrowing down" a list of suspects on the basis of psychological profiles. Weren't the police criticised not long ago for putting too much reliance on this, with the result that a killer walked free for many years? Profiling has also worked greatly, as in the Andrei Chikatilo case: www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/chikatilo/reveal_12.html
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 20, 2009 15:54:04 GMT
Anna, the links you gave a few days ago I'm viewing now. They are very good. Thanks. I'm most interested, as I think you'll have guessed, in why Jack did what he did and how psychological profiling could help to narrow down at least the list of suspects. If Jack was operating now, in Whitechapel, he'd be caught before the 3rd murder. And that's as much due to CCTV as anything. But DNA, profiling, TV/Net reporting. I don't think Jack would have stood a chance. But this is now and Jack was killing 121 years ago. I can't watch video clips but am suspecious of "narrowing down" a list of suspects on the basis of psychological profiles. Weren't the police criticised not long ago for putting too much reliance on this, with the result that a killer walked free for many years? Hi Skylark! To watch YouTube videos on your PC you have to download Microsoft Flash i believe. It hardly takes up any storage space, but i understand reservations about downloads!
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♫anna♫
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The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 20, 2009 16:19:40 GMT
OK. I'm not gonna agree about Chapman but I agree not Kosminski exactly. But someone like him. Kosminski was too far gone to have made basic decisions but then, I don't believe Jack was a mental giant either. Jack was a disorganized killer. If he hadn't started dribbling at the mouth after Miller's Ct I think he would have been found. Anyway, Part 3. This is so true. He didn't kill by cutting. He killed to cut.Hi Gabriel! I think both you and McNaughton look ( looked ) for the wrong psychological profile in hunting the ripper. The belief that the ripper had remorse and would deteriorate after Mary Kelly's murder just doesn't compare to other serial killers! Serial killers are cold blooded reptilian lone wolves with no remorse! The ripper wasn't interested in torturing his victims, unlike some serial killers. He strangled them quickly as your video 3 i believe confirms! The throat slashing and cutting was all post mortem and he posed the bodies obscenely to shock the community, indicating a comtempt for society! Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Both Druitt and Kosminski were somewhat on the frail side. To strangle a struggling victim and to slit someone's throat with such a deep cut would require, even with a sharp knife, a vice like grip and a very strong arm. I hope the following at least knocks Druitt off the suspect list! This link confirms that Druitt only became a suspect after his suicide! I suspect that McNaughton was convinced that the ripper was suffering from remorse and investigated all suicides of people vaguely corresponding to the ripper's description. He may have even planted the suspicion that Druitt was the ripper in the minds of his family, disregarding their mental health issues. Druitt's older sister later committed suicide too and the mother was clinically insane after June 1888. Abberline rightly didn't waste his time with the Druitt theory! The link examines the possibility of homosexuality being the reason for Druitt's dismissal as a teacher. His suicide followed shortly afterwards. I can't quote the link because it's pdf. McNaughton at least concedes that the family gave no evidence to support any suspicions. tinyurl.com/yg3slg3
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Post by gabriel on Oct 20, 2009 21:44:19 GMT
Thanks for the link Anaa. Don't have time to view it now but I will. I don't think Jack had any remorse, not at all. I think Jack's mental state, which was never strong, deteriorated completely after Miller's Ct. He either died, was incarcerated or fled the country. I rule out the last and I strongly lean towards the first two.
Cheers
Gabe
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 20, 2009 22:47:41 GMT
Thanks for the link Anaa. Don't have time to view it now but I will. I don't think Jack had any remorse, not at all. I think Jack's mental state, which was never strong, deteriorated completely after Miller's Ct. He either died, was incarcerated or fled the country. I rule out the last and I strongly lean towards the first two. Cheers Gabe Hi Gabriel! You have to scroll down the link on the last point to get to the relevant points. No way would modern detectives suspect Druitt! Your belief that the ripper would have to strike again quickly is just an assumption. The btk killer's murders were much more sadistic. The ripper was only interested in mutilating corpses and shocking society. The btk victims suffered much longer and more before being murdered. As you see the btk killer started out with a number of victims and then gradually slowed down waiting about 8 years before making his last kill and then waiting almost 20 years until he gave himself away. Btk Timeline: www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56469-2005Feb26.html Your belief that serial killers "deteriorate" is also an assumption that maybe McNaughton shared. The facts differ! g@cy, b*ndy, the green river killer, etc. murdered many more people than the ripper, but remained legally sane!
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 20, 2009 22:48:17 GMT
Thanks for the link Anaa. Don't have time to view it now but I will. I don't think Jack had any remorse, not at all. I think Jack's mental state, which was never strong, deteriorated completely after Miller's Ct. He either died, was incarcerated or fled the country. I rule out the last and I strongly lean towards the first two. Cheers Gabe Hi Gabriel! You have to scroll down the link on the last point to get to the relevant points. No way would modern detectives suspect Druitt! Your belief that the ripper would have to strike again quickly is just an assumption. The btk killer's murders were much more sadistic. The ripper was only interested in mutilating corpses and shocking society. The btk victims suffered much longer and more before being murdered. As you see the btk killer started out with a number of victims and then gradually slowed down waiting about 8 years before making his last kill and then waiting almost 20 years until he gave himself away. Btk Timeline: www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56469-2005Feb26.html Your belief that serial killers "deteriorate" is also an assumption that maybe McNaughton shared. The facts differ! g@cy, b*ndy, the green river killer, etc. murdered many more people than the ripper, but remained legally sane!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2009 4:36:40 GMT
Hi Skylark! To watch YouTube videos on your PC you have to download Microsoft Flash i believe. It hardly takes up any storage space, but i understand reservations about downloads! Anna, I am still on a dial-up connection and everything takes an age to load. I can't watch anything animated! I still favour the idea of Jack being a Jill. Thanks for that interesting article earlier in the thread - which I could digest because it was in good old fashioned typeface!
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Post by gabriel on Oct 21, 2009 6:35:38 GMT
tinyurl.com/yg3slg3Anna, that is a rather strange site that I think is a fiction/science fiction writer's hangout. It was interesting but...www.essortment.com/all/jacktherippe_rdrb.htmThis isn't a bad summary. It includes arguments for and against the top 5 suspects, including McNaughton's three.Jack the Ripper is believed to be the most famous serial killer in history. In the fall of 1888, he stalked the impoverished Whitechapel district of London, brutally taking the lives of five prostitutes within a three-month period. Hundreds of books have been written about the killer, many authors deeming to have solved the long-standing debate over his true identity, yet despite these Jack the Ripper theories, the case remains unsolved. The residents of the Whitechapel district accused the police of being incompetent and many to this day criticize them for not catching the brutal killer. The reality is that the investigation methods available at the time didn’t provide the police with a great advantage; the murders occurred before forensic science and fingerprinting. The only way for the police to prove someone committed a murder was by catching them in the act or through their own confession. Despite the limited forensic science methods available at the time, investigators were able to gain a general physical description of Jack the Ripper from alleged eyewitness accounts. The serial killer was believed to be a white male, between 20 and 40 years of age, well dressed, average or below average height, and possibly a foreigner. Through examination of the victims’ wounds, they concluded that he was right-handed and did have some medical expertise. Since he claimed his victims on the weekend in the early morning hours, it was believed that he worked a regular job and that he was single (he could stay out all night without being questioned). Certain suspects have gained more attention than others have, some pointed out by investigators on the case, and others made famous much later through the media. Sir Melville Macnaghten, the highly respected Chief Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police in 1889 named the following three ripper suspects: Montague John Druitt, born in Dorset to a well-off family, he graduated with a degree in classics and went on to teach at a boarding school in Blackheath. Druitt’s father, who was a surgeon, died in 1885 and his mother was institutionalized for depression. In spite of these tragedies, he became financially prosperous and mingled in respectable social circles, but depression and suicide were prominent in his family. Shortly after being dismissed from his teaching position, his body was found floating in the Thames River in December 1888, a little more than a month after the last ripper victim, Mary Kelly, was found. A suicide note discovered by his brother stated, “Since Friday I felt I was going to be like mother, and the best thing for me was to die.” No hard evidence exists that Druitt was Jack the Ripper with the exception of the commissioner’s statement: “From private information I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer." Since Macnaghten claimed to have destroyed all of the documents pointing to Druitt as the Ripper, the truth may never be known. The second of Macnaghten suspects was Aaron Kosminski, a Polish Jew, who lived in the Whitechapel district when the murders were committed. He was known to have a great hatred for women and strong homicidal tendencies. He was admitted to a lunatic asylum in March 1889. The only evidence against Kosminski was a positive identification by an eyewitness to the Ripper’s Mitre Square murder. At the time of the murder this witness declared that he could not identify the murderer again, then two years later he claimed that Kosminski was indeed the man who committed the crime. Many ripper investigators do not believe that this evidence holds enough weight to point the finger at Kosminski, claiming he may simply have been an insane man in the wrong place at the wrong time. Michael Ostrog, a supposed Russian doctor, is the last of Melville Macnaghten’s three suspects. Ostrog spent the majority of his life in prison for theft and was eventually transferred to a lunatic asylum where he registered himself as a Jewish doctor. Why was Ostrog a suspect? He claimed to be a doctor, he was a well-known criminal, and he had spent time in a lunatic asylum, however, no evidence exists that he was even in the Whitechapel area during the time of the murders. Ostrog was not a violent criminal, he was much too tall (5 ft 11 inches) and too old (in his fifties or sixties) to fit the eyewitness descriptions of the killer. Considering the lack of valid evidence, why did the commissioner name these men as his primary suspects? Macnaghten was believed to have been grasping at straws, broadcasting his personal theories to the hungry press with little information to support them. Inspector Abberline, the head of the Jack the Ripper investigation, discredited Macnaghten’s suspects. “Scotland Yard is really no wiser on the subject than it was fifteen years ago,” he stated in 1903. Abberline had his own theory as to the identity of the Ripper, labeling George Chapman as a likely suspect. Chapman, his real name Severin Klosowski, was born in Poland in 1865 and entered an apprenticeship as a surgeon in Warsaw. He immigrated to London in 1887 and found work as a barber’s assistant in the Whitechapel district, close to where the murders were committed. Chapman was a “lady’s man,” often living with one woman while he was still married to another and was known to have been abusive to his wives. He ultimately resorted to using tartar emetic, a colorless, odorless white powder to poison three of his wives and was finally arrested for the murder of his final wife after a doctor found large doses of the poison in her body. Chapman was hanged on April 7, 1903. The fact that Chapman lived in the Whitechapel district during the time of the murders supports Abberline’s theory. It cannot be ignored that he arrived in London shortly before the murders began and the murders ceased when he traveled to America, where another prostitute was killed in a similar fashion. He also had experience as a surgeon and was obviously violent and homicidal towards women. Hard evidence names Chapman as Jack the Ripper, however, the question still remains whether he could transform himself from a brutal mutilator of prostitutes to that of a conniving “wife-poisoner.” The last and most famous of the top five Jack the Ripper suspects is Prince Albert, the grandson of Queen Victoria. This opinion actually didn’t surface until 1962, when the book Edouard VII by Phillippe Jullien was published. Later, several articles, books, and even movies accused Prince Albert of being Jack the Ripper, claiming that syphilis caused him to go insane and commit the murders. Numerous scholars have discredited these accounts, for Prince Albert was in Scotland at the time of two of the murders, he did not possess any medical knowledge, and he was not a violent man. Regardless of these five theories as to the identity of Jack the Ripper, a suspect could never be charged due to the lack of sufficient evidence. Though over a hundred years have passed since the infamous killer stalked the foggy streets of East London, the case is still being studied by scholars and novices alike, to this day uncovering new theories and clues as to the identity of the ripper. Because the case was never solved, the mystery surrounding the murders of five unfortunate prostitutes has developed into a fascinating puzzle that will continue to be debated well into the future.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 21, 2009 6:49:17 GMT
Anna, that youtube link you gave me is just great. This is Part 5 of the videos I've looked at and relates back to the efit of Jack I posted a few pages ago.
The detective, and I agree, sees Jack as inoffensive, unassuming and right under the cops' noses. They go into geo profiling which is fabulous and zero in on Flower and Dean St, right in the heart of Whitechapel. Now I think Jack lived outside but this is what the experts think. The cops doorknocked all the lodgings in this street and she believes they would have interviewed Jack and discounted him because he was so ordinary, so mundane.
I agree with them. If Jack was operating now, he'd have been caught.
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Post by Big Lin on Oct 21, 2009 14:51:25 GMT
What do people think about Roslyn D'Onston as a suspect?
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Post by trubble on Oct 21, 2009 15:43:36 GMT
I can't get my head around that idea.
I've just watched a programme about the Yorkshire Ripper and seeing as Sutcliffe was interviewed several times and erroneously discounted, I believe that probably happened with Jack the Ripper too.
(In Sutcliffe's case, the graphologist on the case went to meet him in prison and says she was astounded by the gentleness of his voice and the sheer ordinary-ness of him.)
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 21, 2009 17:27:06 GMT
the question still remains whether he could transform himself from a brutal mutilator of prostitutes to that of a conniving “wife-poisoner.” Chapman's life story is that of a psychopathic "transformer"!Don't forget Klosowoski/Chapman was an immigrant, who unlike most immigrants virtually renounced his ethnic heritage to intergrate into English society. He quickly learned a completely new profession since his credientials as a surgeon were not accepted in England. Chapman was cold blooded, brutal and ambitious! He certainly didn't want to be caught. My number 1 question is; "Did Chapman really have the strength to cut through a human neck so deeply that his victims were almost beheaded?" Chapman's wives suffered much more with their slow poisoning and beatings than the ripper victims did. Look at Chapman's display of weapons on the wall in his picture with Bessie Chapman, who was murdered by him later. Serial killers often glorify violence! I posted earlier on this thread how George Chapman/Severin Klosowski threatened to behead his second wife wife, Lucy Baderski, with a knife. He abandoned his first wife in Poland! All of Chapman's wives were constantly beaten and abused! He was single during the ripper murders and known to stay out all night! www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/ripper/chapman_17.htmlHe ( Severin Klosowski ) changed his name to George Chapman and soon lived in a common law arrangement with Mary Spink, who turned over to him her inheritance of 500 pounds. They set up a barbershop, which prospered because of their "musical shaves." Mary played the piano while George took care of the barbering. While they prospered financially, their domestic life was turbulent. George beat his wife frequently. He bought some tartar emetic, a colorless, odorless and nearly tasteless poison containing antimony. In small doses it brings on a gradual painful death. Interestingly enough, the drug has the effect of preserving its victim's body for years after death. When the musical barbershop's novelty wore off, it went out of business and George ended up working as manager in a pub. About the same time, Mary Spink began to suffer from severe stomach problems, which caused her death in 1897. Tuberculosis was the cause of death listed. George Chapman with Bessie Taylor Soon he had a live-in arrangement with Bessie Taylor, but treated her with the same abuse as his former women, once threatening her with a gun. Bessie experienced the same stomach problems as her predecessor and died in 1901 from "exhaustion from vomiting and diarrhea." Chapman with Maud Marsh George found another "wife" called Maud Marsh and treated her just as badly as his other wives. Maud began to suffer from the same stomach illness. Her mother was suspicious and called in another doctor. Chapman was frightened and gave Maud a huge dose of poison, which killed her the following day. Chapman was arrested when Maud's body was found to contain a lethal amount of antimony.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 21, 2009 17:48:02 GMT
What do people think about Roslyn D'Onston as a suspect? Dearest Lin! I'll have to study this suspect! D'Onston like Chapman resided in the area where the Tabram murder and the 1st recognized ripper murder occured! Since he was a patient in a hospital i wonder if he could just freely walk out and prowl the streets of WhiteChapel in the hours after midnight. Don't hospitals lock their doors at night? www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-donstonwrites.html
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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karma:
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 21, 2009 17:56:40 GMT
Hi Skylark! To watch YouTube videos on your PC you have to download Microsoft Flash i believe. It hardly takes up any storage space, but i understand reservations about downloads! Anna, I am still on a dial-up connection and everything takes an age to load. I can't watch anything animated! I still favour the idea of Jack being a Jill. Thanks for that interesting article earlier in the thread - which I could digest because it was in good old fashioned typeface! I suppose anything's theoretically possible, unless proven impossible. If the dna of the ripper is ever isolated we'll know. I often go to internet cafés, if i want to do special stuff because they have all the protective software, firewalls, filters, etc. and they erase everything weekly, something which isn't practical for a private PC.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 21, 2009 22:08:49 GMT
What do people think about Roslyn D'Onston as a suspect? I'll dig up more about him later when I get the chance but Robert Donston Stephenson was one strange dude. I think I'm right about this. He came up with this theory that the Ripper was swanning around with body parts held in his cravat. Must have been a pretty large cravat is all I can say. He was tied in with Aleister Crowley and all that Black Magic rot. IMO a legit suspect, no. He was 45 when the murders happened. Too old, I believe.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 22, 2009 6:43:37 GMT
Anna, you can't ignore the fact that it's really, really unlikely that a guy who strangles then mutilates prostitutes, will suddenly give up for years then turn to poison. Like I said, I can't prove it wasn't him but I believe in profiling and I can only say that I myself am absolutely positive that Klosowski wasn't Jack.
And Stephenson wasn't Jack either. I can't find a link for this so I'll type it in. If you'd like the title of the book etc let me know. This is from an article written by Colin Wilson called A Lifetime in Ripperology. I quote:
The 'magician' Aleister Crowley was told by a lesbian named Vittoria Cremers that JTR was a doctor and journalist named Roslyn D'Onston Stephenson, who committed the murders as part of a magical ritual, and that the sites of the murders when joined together on a map, formed a Cavalry cross(which, of course, is untrue). This theory was resurrected by Richard Whittington-Egan in (1976) and subsequently developed by Melvin Harris in JTR:The Bloody Truth, and its two sequels. Unfortunately, in spite of some excellent research, Harris is unable to prove any connection between D'Onston and the Ripper, although he certainly deserves a high mark for persistence.
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