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Post by Big Lin on Aug 9, 2016 12:56:09 GMT
For those who don't know what it is, Vendetta is a password-protected area of the board where threads that are either getting overheated or are in danger of breaking our rules or Proboards terms of service are moved.
That's NOT some attempt to censor free speech; it's an attempt to prevent the board getting bogged down in feuding or, worse even than that, breaking TOS which could (I know two other forum owners it's happened to) getting their forum closed down by Proboards.
Lately a number of threads are falling into this category.
In Vendetta the discussion can continue but WITHOUT the threads being visible to guests or members who haven't logged in to the Vendetta section.
That means that the main board can continue without the flaming or possible TOS violations distracting guests or new members who might otherwise have the mistaken impression that all that ever gets posted on here is hate speech.
I know I can rely on members to co-operate and understand that Vendetta is there for a purpose - to allow free speech to continue but WITHOUT disrupting the main forum with silliness, anger, prejudice and so on.
Thank you for your co-operation.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Aug 9, 2016 13:05:23 GMT
For those who don't know what it is, Vendetta is a password-protected area of the board where threads that are either getting overheated or are in danger of breaking our rules or Proboards terms of service are moved. That's NOT some attempt to censor free speech; it's an attempt to prevent the board getting bogged down in feuding or, worse even than that, breaking TOS which could (I know two other forum owners it's happened to) getting their forum closed down by Proboards. Lately a number of threads are falling into this category. In Vendetta the discussion can continue but WITHOUT the threads being visible to guests or members who haven't logged in to the Vendetta section. That means that the main board can continue without the flaming or possible TOS violations distracting guests or new members who might otherwise have the mistaken impression that all that ever gets posted on here is hate speech. I know I can rely on members to co-operate and understand that Vendetta is there for a purpose - to allow free speech to continue but WITHOUT disrupting the main forum with silliness, anger, prejudice and so on. Thank you for your co-operation. Lin if you're going to move this discussion to vendetta then I will be saying goodbye. I've enjoyed long time participation here but cannot accept censorship. In my opinion, the last few weeks have been the best discussion ever on this board. What a shame to suppress just because your views happen to be in the minority on the topic of Islam and terrorism iamjumbo @menantol ♫anna♫ blc Deleted Big Lin
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Post by Big Lin on Aug 9, 2016 13:24:31 GMT
I have made it absolutely plain that you CAN carry on discussing controversial topics FREELY in the Vendetta section of the board.
It is NOT censorship to move a thread to Vendetta.
It is irresponsible, selfish and inconsiderate to continue, in spite of REPEATED requests by me and (lately) my husband to moderate posts (some of which have been inflammatory to say nothing of containing downright LIES), for people to imagine that they can behave like spoilt children and not have to face the consequences.
It is NOT censorship to want to protect the continued existence of this forum.
It is NOT censorship to ask people to abide by the rules.
Frankly, what I've seen on here lately are some of the worst examples of falsehood being presented as truth, of hate speech pretending to be free speech, and an obsessional one-dimensional focus on a single issue (almost invariably with this prejudice being supported by totally FALSE statements).
Now I'll REPEAT what I said; moving a thread to Vendetta is NOT censorship.
Any more than narcissistic self-indulgence is 'freedom' or cyberbullying is 'free speech.'
I have NO desire to move threads to Vendetta; if members show some sense of self-discipline and responsibility then it wouldn't be necessary.
You have to remember that sometimes HOW you say something is as important as WHAT you say.
I have NO problem with people posting items critical of Islam.
But there's legitimate criticism and there's posting FALSEHOOD and there's posting hate speech.
Only if legitimate criticism is overstepped (which has happened in about half a dozen posts) will it be necessary to take action.
And I'd much rather members simply showed common sense and self-discipline in HOW they post things.
I am the LEAST suthoritarian forum owner I know; I've allowed two Holocaust deniers to spout their lies on here.
But believe me, when I say I want a different TONE that's NOT the same as wanting to censor anything.
And, as I've said REPEATEDLY, moving a thread to Vendetta is NOT censoring it.
The frank and free discussion can CONTINUE there.
But it WON'T disrupt the main forum.
Nearly every forum I know has an equivalent section to Vendetta.
I'm hardly the exception.
I hope you can recognise that self-discipline and restraint on the main forum and choosing HOW things are said - to say nothing of accepting when inaccurate statements are made - helps us ALL to make this a better place.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Aug 9, 2016 15:19:13 GMT
For those who don't know what it is, Vendetta is a password-protected area of the board where threads that are either getting overheated or are in danger of breaking our rules or Proboards terms of service are moved. That's NOT some attempt to censor free speech; it's an attempt to prevent the board getting bogged down in feuding or, worse even than that, breaking TOS which could (I know two other forum owners it's happened to) getting their forum closed down by Proboards. Lately a number of threads are falling into this category. In Vendetta the discussion can continue but WITHOUT the threads being visible to guests or members who haven't logged in to the Vendetta section. That means that the main board can continue without the flaming or possible TOS violations distracting guests or new members who might otherwise have the mistaken impression that all that ever gets posted on here is hate speech. I know I can rely on members to co-operate and understand that Vendetta is there for a purpose - to allow free speech to continue but WITHOUT disrupting the main forum with silliness, anger, prejudice and so on. Thank you for your co-operation. I don't know the Vendetta password and I don't want to know it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2016 16:31:34 GMT
When some people become personal in their comments toward others it diminishes all of the exchanges. However, there is a big difference between such comments and someone making the decision which comments are true and which are lies. While it is likely that most members will see the differences between the various commenters, they are fully capable to make their own judgements as to what is truth and what is a lie.
Here such a decision is being made by the forum Owner/Moderator, that is, that a specific posting is a lie and another specific posting is the truth. That is fully within the power of the Owner/Moderator to do that, but make no mistake, if that Owner/Moderator moves a thread to some other venue, that is a form of bias and censorship. However, the Owner/Moderator has the power and right to do that, but it is still a form of applied bias and censorship. Saying that people can still exchange views in the new menu, but outside of the view of the innocents, is still a form of censorship and an implying that the members here are not mature enough to make their own decisions. Ah, somewhere there is a memory that this has been done before, even outside of Proboards.
Sometimes such a decision (by the Owner/Moderator) will be affected by the words used and the tone of the comments, and as we have all seen in other forums, it is true that those can get way out of hand. However, here in this forum, in this thread, some of the strongest words and comments used have been by the Owner/Moderator.
In this particular thread it is apparent (at least to me) that the Owner/Moderator is driven to protect Islamic Culture and its members. It is also apparent that others here are driven to protect Western Culture. As I have said many times (here and in other forums) these two cultures do not mesh. They are antithetical to one another. Certainly this reality is worthy of discussion, even of debate, but, as has happened here, these dialogs most often descend into cross charges of unfairness, of people lying, of demands that ‘others’ must accept some point of view or a truth as declared by the speaker. For me this is just evidence of the incompatibility of these two cultures and that the possibility of them ever coming together is truly an illusion.
For me, since I believe in Individual Rights, that becomes elementary in my deciding which of these two cultures I find positive and which I do not find positive. Clearly for me, even with recognizing all of its challenges, that far and away results in me supporting Western Culture. Again, for me, I view Islamic culture as detrimental to Individual Rights, in fact it is (for me) contrary to foundations of Individual Rights and is certainly antithetical to Western Culture.
I might add here, I believe that this antagonistic dialog will be coming to the end during the next ten years or so, by one of two different means. First is the most obvious, that is that Mid-eastern Islam controlled States will make some military move so horrendous, that the West will simply obliterate them. That is, at some point the rabid dog must be taken care of to protect others. The West can do this at any time, and the reality that the West has not yet done so demonstrates its maturity relative to the Islamic States.
The other is inevitable. The West has contributed to this problem by purchasing the crude oil resources from the Mideast providing these near savages with the financial resources to enter modern times with modern weapons. Soon there will be no need to purchase the Mideast crude oil and their income will dry up. Since they are a single industry culture that cannot even grow its own food, they will dry up and blow away on the winds of the deserts on which most of them live. The West can then simply ignore them as they brutally revert to form and kill each other.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2016 16:52:21 GMT
I would add that just because a thread is moved to some where on a forum such as a password protected area does not mean the powers that be at proboards dont have access to it because they do and can still send you a warning about anything in that area that breaches the TOS , that happened to me on my forum in Gibby's Pub.
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Post by blc on Aug 9, 2016 17:57:42 GMT
Hiding something under lock and key doesn't exactly encourage free discussion. jmo I would just make it a members only area.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Aug 9, 2016 18:01:55 GMT
Proboards has no rules against discussing whether or not Fundamentalist Islam can be intergrated in Western civilisation or not. There are also no proboard rules against debating whether or not we have enough immigrants in Western world nations and it's time to close the borders.
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Post by trubble on Aug 10, 2016 17:56:51 GMT
It would be very, very sad if any member wanted to leave because of this small blip in mutual understanding. Let's find a compromise instead!
So I pulled up the most recent threads: of the 30 threads in the past week, 15 of them have been about (the pitfalls of) Islam.
That doesn't include the "toddlers" thread which was a reaction to the other threads, nor does it include this thread, which is about whether the board has become a little bit overwhelmed with one topic.
I'd say it has if over 50% of the content is on one theme. Look for yourselves.
Maybe you guys didn't realise how pervasive the conversation was becoming. The threads spread across several boards, too, so it really does begin to look like a one topic forum.
I know it is not.
I appreciate that the discussion is a valid one, and an interesting one.
Would you guys agree, though, that if a Muslim was looking in on the board they might not find the board a welcoming place?
Lin and Mike have Muslim friends.
I think we should allow Lin and Mike to have concerns about how their forum might be perceived.
I'd like to support the compromise, suggested up-thread, of a sub-board, not password protected necessarily but "members only", so that any of us logged-in members can join in with the discussion without having to jump through hoops, and so the conversation has its own place instead of headlining several sections of the entire board.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2016 18:15:45 GMT
Very well put!
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Aug 10, 2016 18:19:49 GMT
It would be very, very sad if any member wanted to leave because of this small blip in mutual understanding. Let's find a compromise instead! So I pulled up the most recent threads: of the 30 threads in the past week, 15 of them have been about (the pitfalls of) Islam. That doesn't include the "toddlers" thread which was a reaction to the other threads, nor does it include this thread, which is about whether the board has become a little bit overwhelmed with one topic. I'd say it has if over 50% of the content is on one theme. Look for yourselves. Maybe you guys didn't realise how pervasive the conversation was becoming. The threads spread across several boards, too, so it really does begin to look like a one topic forum. I know it is not. I appreciate that the discussion is a valid one, and an interesting one. Would you guys agree, though, that if a Muslim was looking in on the board they might not find the board a welcoming place? Lin and Mike have Muslim friends. I think we should allow Lin and Mike to have concerns about how their forum might be perceived. I'd like to support the compromise, suggested up-thread, of a sub-board, not password protected necessarily but "members only", so that any of us logged-in members can join in with the discussion without having to jump through hoops, and so the conversation has its own place instead of headlining several sections of the entire board. A Reformist Muslim would be pleased that Fundamentalist, Authoritarian, Totalitarian Islam is being challenged and everything from 9 year old child brides to death for apostates qurstioned. Reformist Muslims complain that they don't get enough support from us. Muslims who active oppose the excess es of Fundamentalist Islam would certainly feel welcome here.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Aug 10, 2016 19:06:57 GMT
Honestly trubble what would you think of a Christian who couldn't handle critical discussions about the inquistion, crusades, Westboro Church and basically anything that didn't pander to Churchianity or attempts to practice Christianity?
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Post by trubble on Aug 10, 2016 19:24:45 GMT
It would be very, very sad if any member wanted to leave because of this small blip in mutual understanding. Let's find a compromise instead! So I pulled up the most recent threads: of the 30 threads in the past week, 15 of them have been about (the pitfalls of) Islam. That doesn't include the "toddlers" thread which was a reaction to the other threads, nor does it include this thread, which is about whether the board has become a little bit overwhelmed with one topic. I'd say it has if over 50% of the content is on one theme. Look for yourselves. Maybe you guys didn't realise how pervasive the conversation was becoming. The threads spread across several boards, too, so it really does begin to look like a one topic forum. I know it is not. I appreciate that the discussion is a valid one, and an interesting one. Would you guys agree, though, that if a Muslim was looking in on the board they might not find the board a welcoming place? Lin and Mike have Muslim friends. I think we should allow Lin and Mike to have concerns about how their forum might be perceived. I'd like to support the compromise, suggested up-thread, of a sub-board, not password protected necessarily but "members only", so that any of us logged-in members can join in with the discussion without having to jump through hoops, and so the conversation has its own place instead of headlining several sections of the entire board. A Reformist Muslim would be pleased that Fundamentalist, Authoritarian, Totalitarian Islam is being challenged and everything from 9 year old child brides to death for apostates qurstioned. Reformist Muslims complain that they don't get enough support from us. Muslims who active oppose the excess es of Fundamentalist Islam would certainly feel welcome here.
I'm not sure that's true of all the commentary. There are a few points where I agree with some things said, and a few where I don't. I would point out the places but I'd rather wait until a decision is made on this before wading into it. I am getting my boots on though, so get prepared! Meanwhile, here's a letter from Rabia Chaudry to Bill Maher. Food for thought. I know it is not appropriate to turn this thread into a discussion on the issues, so if you want to discuss the letter, let's start a new thread, but after a decision is made on where to start a thread! time.com/96368/bill-maher-islam-muslim-problem/
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Post by trubble on Aug 10, 2016 19:39:56 GMT
Honestly trubble what would you think of a Christian who couldn't handle critical discussions about the inquistion, crusades, Westboro Church and basically anything that didn't pander to Churchianity or attempts to practice Christianity? That's not what's going on here, though. Not exactly. There's a tone, intentional or not, that's more like we are quoting the WestboroBC peeps and saying that they correctly represent the scriptures and the whole of Christianity. Sort of.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Aug 10, 2016 19:52:35 GMT
Honestly trubble what would you think of a Christian who couldn't handle critical discussions about the inquistion, crusades, Westboro Church and basically anything that didn't pander to Churchianity or attempts to practice Christianity? That's not what's going in here, though. Not exactly. There's a tone, intentional or not, that's more like we are quoting the WestboroBC peeps and saying that they correctly represent the scriptures and the whole of Christianity. Sort of. We can deny that the Westboro peeps are rightly or wrongly associated with Christianity I'd find a Christian who wanted all discussion of this censored or silenced because it makes him feel unwelcomed very suspect.
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Post by trubble on Aug 10, 2016 20:04:32 GMT
[ Apologies -- this post is directed only towards Anna's last post! I will read yours and respond later, Menantol. Looking forward to it.] Well, I humbly disagree. On several levels. Lin has explained very clearly that she is offering a place for full and frank discussion. She is! She disagreed with some things, I presume, but is not silencing them, nor censoring them. Just moving them off the main board. The "vendetta" board perhaps is misleading because of its name? The only difference between posting on there or in the news section is that members have to opt in to seeing the things in "vendetta". Only difference.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2016 20:06:43 GMT
I must admit Trubble that I don’t understand your concerns. Obviously this is a subject with quite different perspectives that have resulted in strong controversy. I guess you are suggesting that when there is a strong controversy that the thread should be moved out of sight? If so, that is an interesting approach to open dialog. Or maybe there is some limit (40%, 50%, 60 %, etc.) to adverse comments that puts a cap on posting.
I would have thought that the numbers of the postings signify interest by the posters rather that simply viewing the thread as becoming ‘pervasive.’
Your point that if a Muslim might not find this board a welcoming place, signifies what? There are many boards which are less than friendly to people who join them, but with all the boards out there I bet that anyone can find a board (probably far more than one) which they want to join and remain as a member. I didn’t realize that the point here was to be warm and fuzzy for people who come here. Those of us who respect the work of Bill Warner have found a decidedly unfriendly atmosphere here and yet that hasn’t stopped open dialog. For me personally, as an Atheist, there are many boards where I find a cold reception.
You make the point that Lin and Mike have Muslim friends. Yes, that has been apparent for a long time and across many Proboard forums. Do you really think that the rest of us do not have acquaintances and friends who are Muslim? Not just Muslims in the generally accepted sense but with some of the variations such as here in America with the Black Muslims. Or the Muslims who are members of the first Mosque in North America which is located in my State. Or those of us who have worked with them in a number of environments. Do we, have to define what we say here based on who our friends are?
I suggest that your point, “ . . . I think we should allow Lin and Mike to have concerns about how their forum might be perceived. . . . “ could be considered redundant in that, in past postings this has been recognized and they have full support (at least of me) to do as they wish.
A compromise? This is already available as anyone can establish a thread with any heading they wish. Lin and Mike can move any thread or posting to whatever, titled thread they want, as owners they have the absolute power.
What the real issue is here (in my opinion) is that we do not agree on some basics relative to Muslims, and that shouldn’t be surprising. This is a very emotional subject for many people. It has been such for about 1,400 years. In normal open dialog there will be strong disagreements, but posters (in my opinion) should not be calling posters names, but that is only my opinion. Lin and Mike can do as they wish, they can set up different threads, put in passwords, delete all of us, or even establish a rule that all references to Muslims must be sweet and kind. There is no possible compromise where they hold all of the power and when others consider their stated positions as wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2016 20:11:00 GMT
Honestly trubble what would you think of a Christian who couldn't handle critical discussions about the inquistion, crusades, Westboro Church and basically anything that didn't pander to Churchianity or attempts to practice Christianity? That's not what's going on here, though. Not exactly. There's a tone, intentional or not, that's more like we are quoting the WestboroBC peeps and saying that they correctly represent the scriptures and the whole of Christianity. Sort of. Trubble, when you get your boots on (so to speak) please feel free to elaborate on this comment as I have not seen any thing of this type anywhere. In fact, as an Atheist I find the Westboro Baptist Church as an insult to Christians or anyone who accepts Western Culture.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Aug 10, 2016 20:44:23 GMT
That's not what's going on here, though. Not exactly. There's a tone, intentional or not, that's more like we are quoting the WestboroBC peeps and saying that they correctly represent the scriptures and the whole of Christianity. Sort of. Trubble, when you get your boots on (so to speak) please feel free to elaborate on this comment as I have not seen any thing of this type anywhere. In fact, as an Atheist I find the Westboro Baptist Church as an insult to Christians or anyone who accepts Western Culture. I wouldn't blame you @menantol for the excesses of Atheists like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.. Every group has it's extremists, but most of Christian, Atheists or whatever are gracious enough not to feel attacked. Even if we do feel attacked most of our members certainly choose free speech over censorship. There are a lot of padded cell forums where non members see nothing. I'm still a member at one, but not very active. Such forums have little value outside of the small circle of members.
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Post by Big Lin on Aug 10, 2016 20:53:01 GMT
What I see is a continuing, one-sided hatefest where ignorance is presented as knowledge; lack of experience is presented as experience; all Muslims are tarred with the same brush; Islam is a monolithic cult with no disagreements about Muslims about what it is; to say nothing of a lot of downright LIES that have been presented as facts.
What I see is a bunch of people all old enough to know better behaving like a bunch of playground bullies.
BA, moving a post or thread to Vendetta is NOT an attempt to stifle free speech.
What YOU and others like you are doing could be considered 'reckless endangerment.'
You are - either unconsciously or consciously - putting the future of this forum at risk.
In the first place we have a set of rules that I drew up when I founded this site.
Many recent posts are in clear VIOLATION of those rules.
If you break the law you have to accept the punishment - which in this case is moving a post or thread to Vendetta.
Proboards also has strict guidelines about hate speech.
Now frankly two other forum owners I know had their boards closed down because they were believed to be too welcoming to hate speech - misogyny in the case of one and xenophobia in the case of the other.
Now I can only assume that either the people who, after REPEATED appeals by me and (latterly) Mike to tone down their rants, find different topics to post on and, above all, to change the TONE of what they say, are too stupid to understand what I'm saying; too narcissistic to care about the feelings of other people or the welfare of this forum; or they deliberately WANT to close this place down.
I remember another forum owner a few years back whose board was taken over by neo-Nazis.
First of all he got so sick he stopped going there.
In the end he closed it down.
Now Vendetta is a compromise; it allows FREE SPEECH within a section of the board that is ONLY visible to members and even then, those members with a password.
It stops guests or new members seeing a string of hate-filled vitriol and lies and makes them (and Proboards) think that this site is nothing but a hate-fest.
Now I've been very patient and tolerant of a lot of people behaving like spoilt brats but enough is enough.
As we'd say in Romanes, dosta! (Enough)
Vendetta allows FREE SPEECH but WITHOUT disrupting or monopolising the main forum.
Destroying free speech is ranting on and spewing poisonous lies to the point where either I have enough and close down this forum or Proboards does it for me.
You have a choice.
You can exercise self-discipline, restraint and follow the rules and post whatever bigoted lies you want in the Vendetta section.
Or you can keep ignoring the wishes of the least authoritarian forum owner you will ever meet and she will either close it down or Proboards will.
Are you really that stupid and narcissistic?
Or are you willing to man up/woman up and try to follow the rules?
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