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Post by Hunny on Aug 21, 2013 14:31:08 GMT
The Netherlands are closing eight prisonsacross their country because of lack of crime. Meanwhile the United States has overcrowded jails and the problem keeps getting worse. Which one of these countries is doing something right? And what would you say that right thing is? an American jail cell
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Post by sadie1263 on Aug 21, 2013 19:30:15 GMT
Hey....I'm open to ideas......what are they doing right?
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Post by Hunny on Aug 21, 2013 19:56:04 GMT
Hey....I'm open to ideas......what are they doing right? I read that our idea of jail is to punish, and their idea is to rehabilitate, and their rate of recidivism is lower from that. Apparently prisoners who are treated better and encouraged and empowered to become good citizens often do; while prisoners who are stuck in a horrible environment and scorned at and deprived only feel anti-social towards the society that treated them that way. People make mistakes. But they're still people. They deserve a second chance and to be helped. (I feel that way, but it isnt what I usually hear Americans saying, Americans usually say something hateful about how they deserve nothing and to suffer. I think that's very wrong.
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Post by Big Lin on Aug 21, 2013 21:20:39 GMT
It's a bit more complicated than that; part of the problem is the number of people who are stuck in prisons in both Britain and America for acts that IMO ought NOT to be crimes at all. Many more are in there for acts that could be better dealt with through non-custodial punishments.
I;m actually working (slowly!) on a long piece on crime and punishment showing how the 'lock them up and throw away the key' mentality actually makes crime WORSE rather than better.
But of course to a retributionist pure and simple (read Mike's article in the magazine - I'm a partial retributionist but retribution alone isn't enough) none of that matters.
Being SEEN to be doing something is more important than doing it RIGHT.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Aug 22, 2013 0:45:17 GMT
The Netherlands doesn't make a real effort to get the thieves rampant in Amsterdam and every large city behind bars. The Dutch just accept the fact that if you have something of value in downtown Amsterdam you are asking to be robbed and the robber is just accepting your invitation!
The Dutch may be right on not putting druggies in prison. Especially marijuana is nothing that would put you in a Dutch prison. Giving a heroin addict methadon is probably cheaper than putting him/her in prison too!
Prostitution is legal in the Netherlands so subtract the prostitutes, pimps and customers from the prison population also!
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Post by Hunny on Aug 22, 2013 13:20:11 GMT
It's a bit more complicated than that; part of the problem is the number of people who are stuck in prisons in both Britain and America for acts that IMO ought NOT to be crimes at all. Many more are in there for acts that could be better dealt with through non-custodial punishments. I;m actually working (slowly!) on a long piece on crime and punishment showing how the 'lock them up and throw away the key' mentality actually makes crime WORSE rather than better. But of course to a retributionist pure and simple (read Mike's article in the magazine - I'm a partial retributionist but retribution alone isn't enough) none of that matters. Being SEEN to be doing something is more important than doing it RIGHT. Oh I look forward to reading that piece when it's finished. I've been thinking for a while now a thread on prison reform might be interesting here.
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Post by Hunny on Aug 22, 2013 13:36:16 GMT
The Netherlands doesn't make a real effort to get the thieves rampant in Amsterdam and every large city behind bars. The Dutch just accept the fact that if you have something of value in downtown Amsterdam you are asking to be robbed and the robber is just accepting your invitation!
The Dutch may be right on not putting druggies in prison. Especially marijuana is nothing that would put you in a Dutch prison. Giving a heroin addict methadon is probably cheaper than putting him/her in prison too!
Prostitution is legal in the Netherlands so subtract the prostitutes, pimps and customers from the prison population also! The countries in that area of the world are smarter and..well, nicer than the United States is. It's not that I want to be putting my country down. I dont. I'd much rather feel proud of at least a couple things we do, but lately there doesnt seem to be anything but stuff to feel angry and disgusted about. America had compassion for its own people, and good intentions it actually was acting on as to creating a decent country to live in, with the money we entrust them with to do that. We used to. But then Ronald Reagan came and then Rush Limbaugh and well 30 years of hate campaigning by the republicans has effectively popularized being hateful and gathering to make clever quips in that spirit. They needed to defame those in power who were DOING those good things for half of the 20th century, so they told people essentially that good is what is actually bad. And now morons parrot that that is so. Meanwhile they robbed the place into a deep deep hole, and sold off the base of our economy making it unlikely we can recover anytime soon. So now we sit here, a society influenced by a TV that pumps out mean lies to be repeated and worn in the people's hearts. We hatemonger at people who make mistakes, we hatemonger at people who have been impoverished and need help, we hatemonger...it is what our leaders for 30 years have told us to do. Republican leaders. This is why our justice system is all about mean-heartedly enjoying the depriving and tormenting and ostracizing of people. Hitler had his Jews. The republicans have their imaginary "liberals", those who would do good, and everybody they manage to say has done something they label as "criminal" (oh, don't deny that they perpetually add more laws to the books (more excuses), add more cops, and even PRIVATIZE the jails so it's all profitable now!. They run for office on the promise of "being tougher on crime", because they wish to pretend to be some sort of savior you need to vote for.) And the people? They just go along with it, and dutifully sit and enjoy 24/7 character plays on the "TV", where we hunt, beat, cage, vilify and excommunicate more than 1% of our own people. So yea, I'm not proud of America at all. The leadership is evil, and the people are lazy and just callously going along.
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Post by Big Lin on Aug 22, 2013 15:14:09 GMT
Look, I'm not naive about criminals (I used to be a juvenile delinquent) nor have I got the slightest tolerance for paedophiles, rapists, violent offenders or terrorists.
But that type of crime is a tiny proportion of the people who are incarcerated and for the overwhelming majority of prisoners a non-custodial sentence would be more appropriate.
And of course if you don't look at the 'aftercare' aspect of lives of prisoners who are going to be released then you're simply asking for trouble..
But sadly too many people prefer the illusion of 'toughness' on crime to the reality which is that the rehab route pays better dividends and always will.
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