♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 2, 2009 21:52:30 GMT
My understanding is that the kind of abuse undertaken by England and others wasn't done as part of the interrogation process. Okay, it might have been part of a wider ploy to break down the prisoners' resistance; I can't now remember all the details. But the big question is whether the perpetrators knew, or should have known, it was wrong. Dearest SkyLark! Are you really suggesting that Lynndie England's commanders were a bunch of spaced out ninnies, who had no idea what was going on? And that these commanders were unaware of the methods used to get the useful information they were after?! Of course the "sexual blackmail photos" were initiated from higher ups, who got this idea from Mossad! Mossad not only got useful information with these "blackmail photos", but found double agents as well among the Jihadists! The puffed up pride of certain Jihadist terrorists is an Achilles' heel of Al Qaida & Co... Exploiting the weakness of the enemy is certainly better than letting US soldiers die!!
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 2, 2009 21:58:09 GMT
It wouldn't be the first time that senior military commanders showed stupidity.
Nor would it be the first time that intelligence agencies failed to DISPLAY intelligence.
To suggest that descending to the level of terrorists is the way to beat them is just something that history shows us to be false.
Without a twin-track approach it's almost impossible to defeat terrorism militarily.
Using torture and humiliation will only INCREASE hatred and is totally counterproductive.
Not for the first time, I wonder about Cheney and Rumsfeld, both known to have had MANY years of previous secret contacts with Al-Qaida.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 2, 2009 22:19:42 GMT
It wouldn't be the first time that senior military commanders showed stupidity. Nor would it be the first time that intelligence agencies failed to DISPLAY intelligence. To suggest that descending to the level of terrorists is the way to beat them is just something that history shows us to be false. Without a twin-track approach it's almost impossible to defeat terrorism militarily. Using torture and humiliation will only INCREASE hatred and is totally counterproductive. Not for the first time, I wonder about Cheney and Rumsfeld, both known to have had MANY years of previous secret contacts with Al-Qaida. Using "humilation" is one thing and the Jihadists, who are killing American, British and other soldiers are often very vulnerable to this "enhanced interrogation"! It's simply a fact that these methods were rightly or wrongly used against Palestinian prisoners by the Israelis. It's really amazing that some people actually believe that Lynndie England and the camera shooter just did this exact same technique on their own. There have been books published that Mossad advisors were present at Abu Ghraib too giving their expert advice! TORTURE is something a universe apart from what the Abu Ghraib detainees were subjected too. These alledged Al Qaida sketches show what real torture is! www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0524072torture1.html
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Post by mouse on Jul 2, 2009 23:07:47 GMT
If that was the case, and the soldiers thought they were doing what was required of them under military law, the situation would be no different to the pilots in WWII told to drop bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, would it? t. the bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki werew totally legit and more than justified and the circumstances were very different.. and i very much doubt any one got sexual kicks out of the bombings
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Post by mouse on Jul 2, 2009 23:12:14 GMT
Using "humilation" is one thing and the Jihadists, who are killing American, British and other soldiers are often very vulnerable to this "enhanced interrogation"! It's simply a fact that these methods were rightly or wrongly used against Palestinian prisoners by the Israelis. It's really amazing that some people actually believe that Lynndie England and the camera shooter just did this exact same technique on their own. There have been books published that Mossad advisors were present at Abu Ghraib too giving their expert advice! TORTURE is something a universe apart from what the Abu Ghraib detainees were subjected too. These alledged Al Qaida sketches show what real torture is! www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0524072torture1.html[/quote]i can only repeat i have no problems with humiliation...the use of medicants ...noise..sleep deprevation...etc when dealing with prisoners in order to get information but cheap sex thrills..are not the way to go..just as ripping them limb from limb or tearing out their tongues etc is the way to go there are far more sophisticated ways to deal with people
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 3, 2009 4:07:38 GMT
If that was the case, and the soldiers thought they were doing what was required of them under military law, the situation would be no different to the pilots in WWII told to drop bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, would it? t. the bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki werew totally legit and more than justified and the circumstances were very different.. and i very much doubt any one got sexual kicks out of the bombings Dearest Mouse, Exterminating masses of innocent people, civilians, children with the H-bomb was justified , but exploiting the Jihadist's bigoted attitude towards sex with non-rape, non-violent, but comprimising photos was worse.. I really am baffled by your value system. The Communists tried the "sexual blackmail technique" with the then imprisoned Polish dissident Lech Walesa and he just enjoyed it. After his release no one was impressed by the Soviet porn flick of someone bearing a striking ressemblance to Walesa enjoying a sexual situation.. Call it what you like, but this is not torture! I'll concede that the terror bombing of Hiroshima shortened the war, but the same end could have been achieved by chosing a military installation or still better an isolated area to show Japan that surrender was neccesary..
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Post by mouse on Jul 3, 2009 8:12:27 GMT
[ Dearest Mouse, Exterminating masses of innocent people, civilians, children with the H-bomb was justified , but exploiting the Jihadist's bigoted attitude towards sex with non-rape, non-violent, but comprimising photos was worse.. I really am baffled by your value system. The Communists tried the "sexual blackmail technique" with the then imprisoned Polish dissident Lech Walesa and he just enjoyed it. After his release no one was impressed by the Soviet porn flick of someone bearing a striking ressemblance to Walesa enjoying a sexual situation.. Call it what you like, but this is not torture! I'll concede that the terror bombing of Hiroshima shortened the war, but the same end could have been achieved by chosing a military installation or still better an isolated area to show Japan that surrender was neccesary.. yes the A bomb was totally justified imo...and on a personal level would have no problems in using it or some thing similar in the same situation and i have no problem with exploiting any hang ups any prisoner may have to gain information...what i have a problem with is the perverseness...had they used call girls or rent boys etc no problem....the problem is the obvious enjoment of england et al...and the sheer stupidity of the methods used...when a tormentor working for the state gets sexual or sadistic pleasure out of his her work...is where i draw the laine because its not proffestional...its not dispationate and will achieve nothing....it was a childish sick little episode...the damage it did was out of proportion to any if any gains not really explained my self well...but i know what i mean..lol
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Post by mouse on Jul 3, 2009 8:17:29 GMT
[ I'll concede that the terror bombing of Hiroshima shortened the war, but the same end could have been achieved by chosing a military installation or still better an isolated area to show Japan that surrender was neccesary.. it wasnt terror bombing..it was destruction bombing it was a final message not only to the japanese for if they changed their minds on surrender......but it was a cold clear message to russia......about the possibilities of what could happen to russia if they went too far in 45 it wasnt a totty little offensive like irak or afghanistan..no one gave a tinkers about hearts and minds[thank goodness]..it was a real war...a war to the death....a win or lose war
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2009 13:48:17 GMT
Mouse, the justification for dropping the A bomb - especially the second one - has been called into question in recent decades.
But I think you have pinpointed the real issue in this case: were the soldiers acting under orders, or were they enjoying a bit of fun on their own initiative, with or without the knowledge of their seniors?
Soldiers are trained to do a job without question. Those who refuse to obey are treated as deserters and court martialled.
It seems that Lynndie England has appealed against her conviction and I'll try to keep an eye on the outcome, which could be interesting!
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 3, 2009 15:10:11 GMT
Mouse, the justification for dropping the A bomb - especially the second one - has been called into question in recent decades. But I think you have pinpointed the real issue in this case: were the soldiers acting under orders, or were they enjoying a bit of fun on their own initiative, with or without the knowledge of their seniors? Soldiers are trained to do a job without question. Those who refuse to obey are treated as deserters and court martialled. It seems that Lynndie England has appealed against her conviction and I'll try to keep an eye on the outcome, which could be interesting! Kim Basinger hated her role in the film "9 1/2 Weeks", especially when she was supposed to kiss cigar smoker Mickey Rourke.. Kim played the role well and the film was a success. Some people think Kim Basinger is a pervert because of this film.. Lynndie England never touched the detainees..just because she was supposed to smile for the pictures doesn't make her a pervert.
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Post by mouse on Jul 3, 2009 15:49:38 GMT
how do you become a perv for playing a role thats really wierd
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 3, 2009 20:14:18 GMT
how do you become a perv for playing a role thats really wierd # I may be misintrepting your posts, but i get the impression you are accusing Mrs. England of being a perv for carrying out her orders and playing the role convincingly as Kim Basinger did in her film!
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Post by mouse on Jul 3, 2009 21:28:56 GMT
touché...almost[lol] playing a role in a film and olaying a role off camera with obvious relish i thnk are some what different..........................dont you some how i dont think bassinger will end up in court and found guilty nor do i thiink bassinger will harm the reputations of americans or american troops..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2009 21:40:22 GMT
It all depends why she was doing what she did, doesn't it?
She might have been genuinely enjoying it all, though I doubt it.
She said she was just obeying an order: the court seems to think she had a choice and that she was trying to please her lover. Either way, I don't believe she was by any means the biggest culprit in it all, and the fact she has been forced into the role of chief villain is a travesty
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Post by mouse on Jul 3, 2009 22:20:48 GMT
it was ALL a travesty in the first place
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 5, 2009 7:18:17 GMT
touché...almost[lol] playing a role in a film and olaying a role off camera with obvious relish i thnk are some what different..........................dont you some how i dont think bassinger will end up in court and found guilty nor do i thiink bassinger will harm the reputations of americans or american troops.. oh come on dearest mouse! Lynndie knew she was being filmed and was ordered to smile mockingly! The thought of being laughed at is very demoralising for a Jihadist! Being mocked by a female in a sexual situation is the ultimate humilation for a Jihadist and they rightly fear being killed by their own people if such photos are made public! Maybe you're right that call girls should have been used! At any rate this tactic has the potential to completely wipe out the self detonating 911 Jihadists Al Qaida & Co., but it's "politically incorrect".. It's really a scandal at any rate that Lynndie England had to serve time in prison!
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Post by mouse on Jul 5, 2009 12:20:15 GMT
i dont do polically correct..or human rights as any one who knows me will tell you.. and any man let alone a muslim man will be humiliated at being mocked without his pants..and coerced in the various veruy childish activities..[ saddams men were much more adept] the real scandle is that the incident happened...the real scandle is that it was done by the american army..the real scandle is this woman was involved and apparently throughly enjoyed her participation
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2009 14:31:32 GMT
Lynndie knew she was being filmed and was ordered to smile mockingly! The thought of being laughed at is very demoralising for a Jihadist! Being mocked by a female in a sexual situation is the ultimate humilation for a Jihadist and they rightly fear being killed by their own people if such photos are made public! Maybe you're right that call girls should have been used! At any rate this tactic has the potential to completely wipe out the self detonating 911 Jihadists Al Qaida & Co., but it's "politically incorrect".. It's really a scandal at any rate that Lynndie England had to serve time in prison! But the court didn't believe that England was acting under orders, did it? That is how I understand the verdict, but as I said, my memory is hazy. The appeal might be interesting if new evidence comes to light.
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Post by mouse on Jul 5, 2009 15:28:16 GMT
""""At any rate this tactic has the potential to completely wipe out the self detonating 911 Jihadists Al Qaida & Co., """ no it doesnt..it could well work in increasing self detonating jihadis....humiliation is a prime mover for revenge..hitler is a good example of this
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 16, 2009 18:06:22 GMT
"""Lynndie England's commander and those behind him didn't have the backbone to stand up and protect this woman!""" protect..protect this aberation of a woman from what exactly..the scorn and disgust she so richly deserved scum pure and unadulterated scum and, you get all that because a chick posed for some comedic photos? hell, those pics are funnier than all getout. she certainly didn't do anything wrong
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