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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2009 13:33:46 GMT
Random Voice; that's my view too. An embryo is not an unborn baby but something unaware of what is happening. To say abortion equates to the suffering of the Jews in Nazi Germany either elevates an embryo to something it is not, or - and perhaps this is the problem - reduces sensuous being to the status of an embryo.
But I have heard animal rights activists and their like calling vivisectionists and slaughterers "murderers." No-one takes any notice of them; if the cap fits, wear it. All kinds of hyperbole and nonsense is talked about and we shrug it off.
Is it, I wonder, the fact that Lerle is a preacher that made his crime appear so heinous? A religious leader has got a great deal of responsibility , and should exercise it.
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Post by mindy on Jun 2, 2009 14:02:33 GMT
Random Voice; that's my view too. An embryo is not an unborn baby but something unaware of what is happening. A newborn baby in general is unaware of what is happening after he/she is born. Of cource the baby recognizes the mothers voice right away because the baby has heard it from inside the womb. A human embryo is not an unborn baby you say? What is it then, an unborn horse?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2009 14:15:20 GMT
Well, it depends what you mean by "baby" Mindy. It is not a "baby" in the sense that most people think of a baby - and it is not a human being in law.
I think that a newborn baby is aware of pain and is able to suffer. Am I wrong?
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Post by Big Lin on Jun 2, 2009 15:05:06 GMT
What disturbs me much more is how easily we ignore mass murderers worse than Hitler because they were less organised about it. At least with the Nazis you had some vague idea of some sort of law, however perverse. With Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot it was what any nutter felt like. If you wore glasses with Pol Pot, you'd had it. What the hell has any of that to do with Marxist belief in freedom for workers with hand or mind? As someone who lost family during the porajmos simply because of our ethnic origins, I'd have to say that Nazi 'law' was almost entirely subjective when it was carried out away from Germany itself. Frequently even Himmler and Heydrich lost their temper with subordinates who murdered people in cold blood for NO reason that even the crazy racist filth of Nazi 'philosophy' could justify!
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jun 2, 2009 15:18:05 GMT
What disturbs me much more is how easily we ignore mass murderers worse than Hitler because they were less organised about it. At least with the Nazis you had some vague idea of some sort of law, however perverse. With Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot it was what any nutter felt like. If you wore glasses with Pol Pot, you'd had it. What the hell has any of that to do with Marxist belief in freedom for workers with hand or mind? As someone who lost family during the porajmos simply because of our ethnic origins, I'd have to say that Nazi 'law' was almost entirely subjective when it was carried out away from Germany itself. Frequently even Himmler and Heydrich lost their temper with subordinates who murdered people in cold blood for NO reason that even the crazy racist filth of Nazi 'philosophy' could justify! When it was discovered that one of Hitler's favorite cooks, who knew well how to prepare Hitler's favorite vegetarian dishes, was of Jewish descent, Hitler lamented and said; "Why did you have to find that out". Her name was Marlene von Exner members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/women.htmlTo whatever extent Nazi murders were carried out will never be known with absolute certainty. Even if what some of these holocaust doubters say is true no one can deny that the concentration camp inhabitants ere illegally kidnapped and forced to slave labor in a deadly, disease filled environment as the Red Cross documented, during their visits to Auschwitz.. If it can be shown that a serial killer didn't murder as many people as previously thought that doesn't exonerate the serial killer either.
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Post by sesley on Jun 2, 2009 15:20:02 GMT
have you ever been pregnant skylark? have you not felt a unborn baby,moving about in your body? abortion is a emotive subject, the women that have them must be in a terrible dilemma to want one. a unborn baby in the last trimester is very much alive and kicking. they respond to noise and music,inside the womb. they are very much alive. However i do believe there is a geneoicide of people that might be born with some minor disabilities,like cleft palattes or deafness and if the they could people that carry the autism gene.
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Post by lonewolf on Jun 2, 2009 15:59:16 GMT
and it is not a human being in law. Inorganic law, not organic law!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2009 16:41:31 GMT
Selsey, I was talking about embryos, not a foetus in the last trimesta. I am wondering why an egg and a sperm - quite dispensible in their trillions - suddenly take on the status of a fully functioning human being as soon as they meet up. It seems nonsense to me.
I happen to think that abortions, if they are carried out, should be done as early as possible.
As for allowing abortion to people carrying children with minor disabilities - I am uneasy about allowing them abortion which would be denied the parents of "healthy" children. It is a bit like saying disabled children are lesser people, and I don't think they are!
I am feeling a bit frustrated with this thread because I'd like to see a press report of Lerle's trial, and his previous trial, which would help tell us just what he did say that warranted a prosecution!
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Post by mindy on Jun 2, 2009 17:38:19 GMT
Selsey, I was talking about embryos, not a foetus in the last trimesta. I am wondering why an egg and a sperm - quite dispensible in their trillions - suddenly take on the status of a fully functioning human being as soon as they meet up. It seems nonsense to me. I happen to think that abortions, if they are carried out, should be done as early as possible. As for allowing abortion to people carrying children with minor disabilities - I am uneasy about allowing them abortion which would be denied the parents of "healthy" children. It is a bit like saying disabled children are lesser people, and I don't think they are! I am feeling a bit frustrated with this thread because I'd like to see a press report of Lerle's trial, and his previous trial, which would help tell us just what he did say that warranted a prosecution! Because that egg and that sperm have created a "life". A woman can start feeling movement from the baby 5 months into the pregnancy, which is about the same time an ultra sound is usually done which can detect the baby's sex. Well, abortions are still legal during this time! A person can have an abortion up until at least the 5th month if not the 6th month of pregnancy. And months before this, very early on in the pregnancy, the baby's heart beat can be detected.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2009 19:22:37 GMT
Mindy, I am uncomfortable at the thought of an abortion at five months. As for the detection of a heartbeat - it still doesn't mean that that "life" is feeling or can suffer if it is killed. One of Colonel Saunders' chickens is capable of a lot more suffering than an embryo.
We are coming from different directions on this, and the abortion argument is one that can never be won.
As for the holocaust - well, I don't understand the mentality that prosecutes deniers, either!
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jun 2, 2009 19:28:44 GMT
I am feeling a bit frustrated with this thread because I'd like to see a press report of Lerle's trial, and his previous trial, which would help tell us just what he did say that warranted a prosecution! I understand your frustration. Almost all the news on this is in German and the local news paper articles on the trial are not online anymore.. Some people even among the Baptists suspect that Johannes has an autistic condition that makes him see a lot of things as black or white, still i never found anything thing "criminal" about Johannes! Johannes is out of prison now as far as i know and has an e-mail address johannes-lerle@johannes-lerle.de and speaks English very well. I saw a video of an unborn baby being sucked out of the womb and torn apart in the process and showing signs of resistance and agony! i still get uncontrolled crying spells when i think of that video and all the millions of other unborn children killed.. I feel in my heart that Johannes, despite all of his flaws, is truly one of the good guys!
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Post by randomvioce on Jun 2, 2009 20:20:38 GMT
i still get uncontrolled crying spells when i think of that video and all the millions of other unborn children killed.. Anna, how do you feel when you see the millions of born and unborn children die in Africa/Asia/America through completely preventable starvation, drought, war, poverty and HIV? Why are the 'operation rescue' giys not spend their time and money saving MILLIONS of God's babies every year? Simple things like debt cancelation could save thousands of lives as well as a few wells and good drainage etc. Why no attempt to do God's work for good rather control women's bodies?
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Post by mindy on Jun 2, 2009 21:22:49 GMT
i still get uncontrolled crying spells when i think of that video and all the millions of other unborn children killed.. Anna, how do you feel when you see the millions of born and unborn children die in Africa/Asia/America through completely preventable starvation, drought, war, poverty and HIV? Why are the 'operation rescue' giys not spend their time and money saving MILLIONS of God's babies every year? Simple things like debt cancelation could save thousands of lives as well as a few wells and good drainage etc. Why no attempt to do God's work for good rather control women's bodies? And what makes you think she doesn't? Anna cares about all children and babies, born and unborn. Just because we also care about the unborn, doesn't mean we don't care about those who are living in this world and suffering. Your statement makes no sense. No one is trying to control womens bodies, we simply care about the unborn who cannot defend themselves or there own right to life... And how is anyone so sure the unborn doesn't suffer during the abortion procedure? As anna stated- she saw a video where the unborn baby was suffering. Anyone with a beating heart can surely suffer!
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Post by june on Jun 2, 2009 21:37:16 GMT
I am pro choice and believe it is every woman's right to choose.
I feel abortion should be allowed up to the point we know babies can survive outside the womb, what is that about 23 weeks or so in very rare cases? But there will have to be exceptions to that for cases of rape or where it would cause the woman/girl real harm to birth.
In a civil society you would hope that no woman would be forced to have a child against their will, but then again you would also hope that the use of contraception (that is freely available in the UK) would prevent unwanted pregnancy, unfortunately it doesn't seem to.
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Post by randomvioce on Jun 2, 2009 23:01:40 GMT
And what makes you think she doesn't? Anna cares about all children and babies, born and unborn. Just because we also care about the unborn, doesn't mean we don't care about those who are living in this world and suffering. Your statement makes no sense. No one is trying to control womens bodies, we simply care about the unborn who cannot defend themselves or there own right to life... Well I don't see this Bapist Minister or operation rescue doing God's Work in Africa helping God's babies. In fact, I never see see any of the Republicans digging wells or demanding debt cancelling either. If they are so worried about the killing of innocent children, what about the pregnant women who were killed by the two atom bombs dropped on Japan? Or God's children deformed by agent orange in Vietnam or those killed by American weapons in Iraq? When I these these religous fruitcakes start adressing those, give me a call.
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Post by Big Lin on Jun 2, 2009 23:22:43 GMT
I'm a bit surprised to see you - generally more open-minded on most subjects than the usual suspects - taking such a one-dimensional and judgemental approach, to the point where what you say becomes a total caricature of pro-life advocates.
I freely admit that I am pro-life; I also admit that I would NOT condemn a woman who chose to abort a baby if it was conceived as a result of rape or incest; I don't think that makes me a hypocrite either by the way though of course one member of this board is very fond of calling anyone he disagrees with either a hypocrite, a feminist or a racist.
My eldest child has certain genetic defects and I was advised by the doctor to abort him. I chose not to do so and even though he will never be as able as most children I'm still glad that I didn't.
I get tired of the nonsense on both sides, to be honest. I've argued with extreme pro-lifers who think that ALL abortions are unjustified; I've also argued with 'pro-choicers' who think that the 'mother' - womb donor might be a more appropriate description in her case! - has the absolute right to abort a child simply because she feels like it. She is putting her own selfish wishes above the welfare of the child.
There is NO excuse for getting serial abortions which is becoming a growing trend in Britain.
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Post by randomvioce on Jun 3, 2009 0:09:08 GMT
Let me start off by saying that I am anti abortion too. I would consider myself a ‘pro life’ person. However, let us not cloud the issue here, we are not talking about ending abortion. Abortions used to take place in this Country long before David Steele’s 1967 abortion act and Roe V Wade as well. If that Bill was repealed and/or the ruling overturned, we would not see the end of abortions. We would simply see the return of the backstreet abortionist.
I would love to see that every child was brought onto Earth to be loved, but that is not the case. Some women will choose to have an abortion whatever the reason. If we want to argue why that is then we could have ten treads running concurrently on this issues, but we are not going to stop women choosing abortions.
I would rather spend the time and money on children who suffer every day on this planet rather than spend hours, weeks and months trying to change forty year old laws.
When I see children rescued from real pain and suffering, then come and talk to be about abortion, but I am not going to take away a women’s choice one some people’s whim.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jun 3, 2009 0:39:15 GMT
So many teenage pregnancies are started because some oversexed teenage male (perhaps 17 or 18 or 19 years old) has a compelling biological urge to get laid. The girl who is on a date with him imagines that this is love and the result is a pregnancy.
The next day the boy realizes that this is not love. He's not even remotely attracted to the girl. They have no common interests. It was all about getting laid.
He's not going to consider marrying her no matter what. He feels no attachment to her. She was just a one night stand. There is no love. He doesn't even really like her very much.
So that's not the best basis for moving forward into marriage and parenthood.
Abortion is a very difficult problem. I can see both sides of it.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jun 3, 2009 1:36:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2009 5:51:42 GMT
Random Voice has taken a practical approach. Why not focus on the living human beings suffering from lack of food and care and abuse?
Why bring more unwanted children into the world to suffer? That's what happens if you deny women abortion.
I've heard of films that show how an aborted foetus will struggle, although of course that could be just a reflex action, just as a fish or chicken will jump about after its head has been severed. However I am really only in favour of early abortion, except in cases where the child will be born so severely damaged that it will live a short life of pain and misery.
As for Lerle - googling seems to find a lot of polarised views. Thanks for giving us more information about him, Anna, but I won't be writing to him! The article I posted in #10 portrays him as anything but a nice person. It gives a link to Lerle's webiste - so if any German-sepaking posters have time to read it, I'd be glad of feedback.
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