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Post by Liberator on Apr 22, 2009 4:37:10 GMT
Our Far Right, yes, what you call Far Right. no. I reckon the US much the same as the Middle East. Parts of it are Iran, most of it is fairly free but none of it even knows what Socialism is. And I think Socialism inadequate because it traditionally wtopped when the working man left the factory gates and only cared who ran the factory, not what it was for and that there's a life at home the factory is supposed to be providing for, not sacrificed to work for the sake of work. There isn't an American Left. Strangely, there used to be in the Bible Belt until about 1950. By then Business Interests had used fear of federal interference threatening religion (and racism) to over-ride Puritan egalitarianism with clinging to whatever local government directed, and Big Business directed local government while pretending that it was actually protecting the people against it. See Noam Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2009 6:36:29 GMT
I went to a single sex school, but one of my flatmates had attended a rural mixed secondary modern in the 1960s. She quite enjoyed it, but from what she told me, the boys used to play a game that involved grabbing hold of the girls' sanitary towels (yes, while they were wearing them!).
I gathered that it was seen (among their peers at least) a something girls should be able to deal with. I have no idea whether the teachers knew;quite frankly, I could not have coped with that and would have been much, much too embrarrassed to tell a grown-up.
The same flatmate became a teacher herself and said her school maintained blissful ignorance about the bullying going on - when a girl refused to go, they simply refused to accept that it was because of bullying. Thank goodness things have changed.
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Post by Liberator on Apr 22, 2009 14:15:26 GMT
A lot of that semi-sexual bullying comes about when girls are taught to get hysterical about it. (And some of it is a halfway house kind of flirting while pretending not to). It's not going to happen if it gets a cold retaliation or reported instead of a nice big hysterical fuss. It's not unknown for girls to pull boys' pants down and similar assaults either. It needs to be stopped or it will progress, not necessarily because everybody's sex-crazed (though they often are at that age!) but because everybody will want to outdo everybody else and before you know it the likes of the girl who bragged to me as a teenager about running this twelve-year old virgin down to give him a blowjob in front of me mates (she didn't catch him - deliberately? - finds herself being raped because some boy out-dared another and there was a certain amount of early complicity on both sides.
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Post by trubble on Apr 22, 2009 17:43:21 GMT
What we do know is for whatever reason the girl felt she could not deal with this and sought help, perhaps she had tried unsuccessfully to bat him away, perhaps things were escalating - who knows, the detail is not here for us to make that judgement. So no feminist conspiracy but more an appropriate response at the appropriate time - as far as I can tell. I wouldn't expect a girl to have to deal with this sort of nuisance herself. What I find worrying is more that the teachers couldn't. Calling the police seems a very inappropriate response to me, wildly over the top just because anything remotely sexual has the staff in a tiswas and of course teaches the girl that traditionally hysterical over-reaction is the proper response to things sexual. I doubt that if he had punched her in the face (or she him), the police would have been involved although actual harm might be greater. I don't think there's any feminist conspiracy at all, just that traditional over-reaction and treating females as delicate creatures in need of shielding from anything with possible sexual connotations is what I expect of modern feminist thinking. I wonder whether you've read your own OP. The boy is on a list of registered sex offenders. The teacher is probably required to report behaviour. The system with juvenile offenders appears to be that they are put into mainstream school without any students or parents knowing their history so presumably there is a specific procedure if any inappropriate sexual behavior happens. Presumably the teacher followed procedure. There's no other way to have an integrating system of ''rehab'' - there must be someone monitoring and dealing with further events. Apparently this integration method is successful with juvenile offenders. A lot of that semi-sexual bullying comes about when girls are taught to get hysterical about it. (And some of it is a halfway house kind of flirting while pretending not to). It's not going to happen if it gets a cold retaliation or reported instead of a nice big hysterical fuss. It's not unknown for girls to pull boys' pants down and similar assaults either. It needs to be stopped or it will progress, not necessarily because everybody's sex-crazed (though they often are at that age!) but because everybody will want to outdo everybody else and before you know it the likes of the girl who bragged to me as a teenager about running this twelve-year old virgin down to give him a blowjob in front of me mates (she didn't catch him - deliberately? - finds herself being raped because some boy out-dared another and there was a certain amount of early complicity on both sides. People know the difference between someone flirting with them, playfighting/flirting and someone harassing them - 13 year old girls just know. It's instinct, I suppose.
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Post by june on Apr 22, 2009 19:10:20 GMT
A lot of that semi-sexual bullying comes about when girls are taught to get hysterical about it. Is that fact or your supposition? It's not my experience but I'd be interested to see some data to support this statement. really? I disagree from experience as a woman who was once a young girl - not sure what you are basing your evidence on? True, and your point is? That is a nice piece of literature but has no basis in fact, if your doomsday scenario of rampant teens is likely surely it would have happened already. I am also a little unclear if you are now reversing your POV that to report this was overkill - as you seem to be suggesting here that these things must be acted upon to make them stop. If are saying that only the victim can stop this by her actions then I think we will have to disagree on that one. It is not up to women to 'police' inappropriate sexual behaviour - it's the perpetrators fault/issue not the victims.
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Post by beth on Apr 22, 2009 19:43:15 GMT
Our Far Right, yes, what you call Far Right. no. I reckon the US much the same as the Middle East. Parts of it are Iran, most of it is fairly free but none of it even knows what Socialism is. And I think Socialism inadequate because it traditionally wtopped when the working man left the factory gates and only cared who ran the factory, not what it was for and that there's a life at home the factory is supposed to be providing for, not sacrificed to work for the sake of work. There isn't an American Left. Strangely, there used to be in the Bible Belt until about 1950. By then Business Interests had used fear of federal interference threatening religion (and racism) to over-ride Puritan egalitarianism with clinging to whatever local government directed, and Big Business directed local government while pretending that it was actually protecting the people against it. See Noam Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent. Ok, just a suggestion - while you're reading Chomsky (and, perhaps, Howard Zinn?), try to also read something from another POV. I realize, sitting where you are, there's a temptation to see the U.S. through sharp magnifying glasses. Truth - it doesn't look the same from close range.
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Post by Liberator on Apr 22, 2009 23:05:45 GMT
I get other points of view off the web and the news! Just the things people talk about and the way they do says a lot. I can learn a lot from somebody who talks about knowing different kinds of Christians and they don't all 'love God' and Catholics. So Catholics are not Christians? Sorry, in my view the non-Anglican/Lutheran true Protestants are reformed Jews all Old Testament wrath and damnation and loving God, while Christianity (whether you believe in it or not) is about God loving you, not the other way round. Then there's the arguments about tax being theft and whether roads should be privatised and stuff that feels like a time warp. England always felt like a blast from the past compared to Europe, but the USA!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2009 6:59:17 GMT
No-one has commented on my suggestion of single sex schools. Girls - and boys - in puberty have enough to cope with without the curious and ignorant teasings of the opposite sex.
Though it is sometimes said that girls and boys are much nastier to each other in single sex schools so I suppose there is always a down side!
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Post by jean on Apr 23, 2009 7:45:14 GMT
A lot of that semi-sexual bullying comes about when girls are taught to get hysterical about it...It's not going to happen if it gets a cold retaliation or reported instead of a nice big hysterical fuss... What a ludicrous piece of blame-the-victim! You have no idea (thought some posters on this thread have guiven you a hint) how many girls miserably suffered this sort of thing in silence in the past, without any noticable effect on the distressing behaviour! (I'm here by invitation btw - just looking around...)
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Post by june on Apr 23, 2009 15:08:04 GMT
I get other points of view off the web and the news! Just the things people talk about and the way they do says a lot. I can learn a lot from somebody who talks about knowing different kinds of Christians and they don't all 'love God' and Catholics. So Catholics are not Christians? Sorry, in my view the non-Anglican/Lutheran true Protestants are reformed Jews all Old Testament wrath and damnation and loving God, while Christianity (whether you believe in it or not) is about God loving you, not the other way round. Then there's the arguments about tax being theft and whether roads should be privatised and stuff that feels like a time warp. England always felt like a blast from the past compared to Europe, but the USA! Why bring religion into this, apropo nothing?
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Post by Big Lin on Apr 23, 2009 15:23:26 GMT
I get other points of view off the web and the news! Just the things people talk about and the way they do says a lot. I can learn a lot from somebody who talks about knowing different kinds of Christians and they don't all 'love God' and Catholics. So Catholics are not Christians? Sorry, in my view the non-Anglican/Lutheran true Protestants are reformed Jews all Old Testament wrath and damnation and loving God, while Christianity (whether you believe in it or not) is about God loving you, not the other way round. Then there's the arguments about tax being theft and whether roads should be privatised and stuff that feels like a time warp. England always felt like a blast from the past compared to Europe, but the USA! Why bring religion into this, apropo nothing? Ratarsed aka Uncle Vanya aka the Toad and various other aliases is known for his scattergun approach when it comes to insults, especially when he's making racist or sexist remarks. He just hasn't played that particular card before on this thread, that's all.
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Post by june on Apr 23, 2009 16:31:06 GMT
Why bring religion into this, apropos nothing? Ratarsed aka Uncle Vanya aka the Toad and various other aliases is known for his scattergun approach when it comes to insults, especially when he's making racist or sexist remarks. He just hasn't played that particular card before on this thread, that's all. I am anticipating the kitchen sink* being thrown in next ;D *without wimmin chained to it obv
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Post by motorist on Apr 23, 2009 16:32:32 GMT
I was wondering how he was going to fit the Moon landing into it later
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Post by june on Apr 23, 2009 16:53:29 GMT
I was wondering how he was going to fit the Moon landing into it later ;D let's wait and see........
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Post by Liberator on Apr 23, 2009 21:52:10 GMT
Ok, just a suggestion - while you're reading Chomsky (and, perhaps, Howard Zinn?), try to also read something from another POV. I realize, sitting where you are, there's a temptation to see the U.S. through sharp magnifying glasses. Truth - it doesn't look the same from close range. The reason I 'brought religion into it' June, was as an example answer to this about American attitudes. I think that contrasting 'Christianity' to 'Catholicism' tells us a lot about sectarian intolerance (as well as ignorance of Orthodoxy), as does the overwhelming presence of religion or dismissal of it all in fundamentalist terms. Talk of needing protection against government reveals people who have never felt certain that their government represents their interests instead of those of the ruling class, or ever could. Maybe we are more naive or feel more control over our governments. Whatever else, these little things that come up as regular significant matters of discussion show very different preoccupations from European.
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