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Post by everso on May 4, 2011 9:02:52 GMT
Agreed.
It's not the job of the counsellor to air his or her views.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 4, 2011 17:50:43 GMT
I would have had a good deal more sympathy with Julea Ward had she refused to counsel the client. From what I can gather, she took him on then made her disapproval of his situation clear to him (I think it was a him!). Had she stated her position at the outset and given him the chance to refuse, all well and good. But she didn't, did she? As I understand this case she never met the homosexual male, but was expected to be approving of his life style. She simply tried to pass this patient on to someone else.
I know for a fact that psychologists and psychiatrists pick and choose, who they treat. They are always overrun with patients ( of their choice ) and never have trouble, if they prefer to refer say alcoholics to other doctors and counselors. Specialisation is normal among psychiatrists, psychologists and should be so for counselors.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2011 19:27:12 GMT
To tell the truth, I've heard so many versions of this that I'd be interested to know what did happen! I'm sure that in one link it was said that Ward advised the client to avoid homosexual relations, so he asked for a different counsellor. Yet this is from one of your recent posts: www.onenewsnow.com/Education/Default.aspx?id=1336314"The measure was introduced in response to Eastern Michigan University's dismissal of Julea Ward from its counseling degree program two years ago when she refused to counsel a student who asked for advice on how to improve his homosexual relationship. Ward, who is a Christian, said being forced to encourage such a relationship would violate her sincerely held religious convictions"
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Post by everso on May 5, 2011 0:37:05 GMT
I would say that if you hold strong religious convictions, it's difficult to be a counsellor.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2011 8:02:15 GMT
It must be difficult for anyone with strong views, not just the religious, and that means all of us.
Counsellors faced with a pregnant 15 year old girl might be strongly anti-abortion or believe that teenage mothers are all fools; whatever their opinion, they must counsel within the guidelines.
We might be comfortable with homosexuality or abortion and easy about teenage mums, but we all have strong views - even prejudices - about something.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 5, 2011 12:32:22 GMT
It must be difficult for anyone with strong views, not just the religious, and that means all of us. Counsellors faced with a pregnant 15 year old girl might be strongly anti-abortion or believe that teenage mothers are all fools; whatever their opinion, they must counsel within the guidelines. We might be comfortable with homosexuality or abortion and easy about teenage mums, but we all have strong views - even prejudices - about something. It should be OK to have strong convictions about some matters and counselors should be free to refer certain patients to other counselors. I think a wishy washy, no backbone, all approving, all accepting counselor wouldn't help anyone.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2011 7:03:28 GMT
Anna, I'm not at all sure that counselling does help anyone, in the long term at least! I've sometimes thought one might be better off talking to the wall than someone who refuses to express an opinion or offer advice. However, from what I've head, counsellors are meant to do neither!
My understanding is that counselling is all about helping the client work out a solution.
Counsellors can ask question and provide information and of course, a client may be able to gauge what they really think from this alone. But - and correct me if I am wrong - counselling is not about the counsellor. Maybe it should be. But anyone joining a training programme has to accept it as it is, or try to find a scheme that they do feel comfortable with.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 7, 2011 4:18:45 GMT
Anna, I'm not at all sure that counselling does help anyone, in the long term at least! I've sometimes thought one might be better off talking to the wall than someone who refuses to express an opinion or offer advice. However, from what I've head, counsellors are meant to do neither! My understanding is that counselling is all about helping the client work out a solution. Counsellors can ask question and provide information and of course, a client may be able to gauge what they really think from this alone. But - and correct me if I am wrong - counselling is not about the counsellor. Maybe it should be. But anyone joining a training programme has to accept it as it is, or try to find a scheme that they do feel comfortable with. Dearest Skylark! I think a counselor, who is willing to renounce or conceal his/her convictions to get a job as a counselor is too wimpy and slimey to help anyone. Again to clear up the media distortions Mrs. Ward never said she would refuse to counsel a homosexual. She just refused to approve of homosexuality. Knowing that she was expected to approve of this man's homosexuality and help him make it with his male partner she tried to have this case referred to another counselor. Mrs. Ward is no PC parrot!
If someone doesn't approve of something about me or my life style I always thank him/her for their honesty. We need honesty to go forward!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 7, 2011 4:37:34 GMT
Bravo Arizona! Arizona passed a law protecting the rights of people like Julea Ward! There should be diversity among counselors! Let a counsel seeker find the counselor he/she feels good about. Who wants the one size fits all PC parrot to be the only employable counselor allowed!blogs.christianpost.com/liberty/2011/05/arizona-college-students-no-longer-have-to-choose-between-their-religious-convictions-and-their-diplomas-05/ QUOTE: Arizona College Students No Longer Have to Choose between Their Religious Convictions and Their DiplomasThanks to a bill recently signed into law by Arizona’s governor, Jan Brewer, students enrolled in helping profession (counseling, social work, and psychology) programs at Arizona public universities will no longer have to choose between their religion and their degrees when they are assigned a client who seeks counseling that conflicts with their sincere religious beliefs. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for public universities to force this unconstitutional choice upon students who find themselves in this predicament. Indeed, current ADF client Julea Ward, who was enrolled in a graduate counseling program at Eastern Michigan University, chose to follow her religious convictions rather than provide therapy that violated those convictions, and her university expelled her. Her case is currently on appeal. The Arizona law provides many protections for religious students, including a provision permitting students enrolled in helping profession programs to avoid counseling relationships that would require them to violate their religious convictions. The specific provision of the law states: “A university or community college shall not discipline or discriminate against a student in a counseling, social work or psychology program because the student refuses to counsel a client about goals that conflict with the student’s sincerely held religious belief if the student consults with the supervising instructor or professor to determine the proper course of action to avoid harm to the client.” Sadly, the American Counseling Association (“ACA”) sent Governor Brewer an eleventh hour letter urging her to veto the bill because it contained the above provision. ADF responded to the ACA’s letter, pointing out several misrepresentations in it and assuring Governor Brewer that universities with accredited counseling programs would not lose their accreditation if the bill was signed into law. Thankfully, Governor Brewer signed the bill on April 29, 2011. For a profession that is becoming increasingly hostile to persons who take their religious faith seriously (the ACA not only objected to protecting the religious liberties of Arizona students but has also actively defended Eastern Michigan’s expulsion of Julea Ward), this new Arizona law must be tough medicine to swallow. Three cheers to the Arizona legislature and Governor Brewer for taking decisive legislative action to protect religious students who desire to enter a profession that is trying to close its doors to them.
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Post by everso on May 8, 2011 20:00:33 GMT
Anna, I'm not at all sure that counselling does help anyone, in the long term at least! I've sometimes thought one might be better off talking to the wall than someone who refuses to express an opinion or offer advice. However, from what I've head, counsellors are meant to do neither! My understanding is that counselling is all about helping the client work out a solution. Counsellors can ask question and provide information and of course, a client may be able to gauge what they really think from this alone. But - and correct me if I am wrong - counselling is not about the counsellor. Maybe it should be. But anyone joining a training programme has to accept it as it is, or try to find a scheme that they do feel comfortable with. I think counselling does help some people, but it's not for everyone. Everyone has his/her own ways of working through stuff, but in some cases (and I only have knowledge of what I dealt with as a telephone counsellor - which isn't the same as a face-to-face counsellor) it can be very helpful. And, of course, it does depend on the counsellor as well!
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2011 16:23:37 GMT
Everso, I think I said upthread that counsellors perform a valuable service to people suffering from a trauma, and knowing the nature of your work, would say that came into that category. Same goes for bereavement counselling. I'm not convinced that it really helps people sort out things they can work out for themselves with a little help from their friends; neither do I believe it offers any long-term panacea for the traumatised.
As for the Arizona bill; well, I can see some merit in allowing people to pass clients on to more suitable counsellors in some situations, providing this is done with sensitivity and care. Keaton (whose case began this thread) seemed to have lost her appeal after evidence came to light that she intended to tell clients what she thought of their way of life. If Ward was doing the same, she deserves to lose her appeal too.
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Post by everso on May 11, 2011 21:16:11 GMT
Everso, I think I said upthread that counsellors perform a valuable service to people suffering from a trauma, and knowing the nature of your work, would say that came into that category. Same goes for bereavement counselling. I'm not convinced that it really helps people sort out things they can work out for themselves with a little help from their friends; neither do I believe it offers any long-term panacea for the traumatised. As for the Arizona bill; well, I can see some merit in allowing people to pass clients on to more suitable counsellors in some situations, providing this is done with sensitivity and care. Keaton (whose case began this thread) seemed to have lost her appeal after evidence came to light that she intended to tell clients what she thought of their way of life. If Ward was doing the same, she deserves to lose her appeal too. Agreed.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 15, 2011 5:03:22 GMT
Keaton (whose case began this thread) seemed to have lost her appeal after evidence came to light that she intended to tell clients what she thought of their way of life. If Ward was doing the same, she deserves to lose her appeal too. Dearest SkyLark! I don't think Mrs. Keeton wanted to "hurt feelings" or in any way be "unprofessional". Her lawyer is continuing to fight for her rights! The two videos below discuss Jennifer Keeton's position and opposing views.
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Post by june on May 15, 2011 7:42:09 GMT
Keaton (whose case began this thread) seemed to have lost her appeal after evidence came to light that she intended to tell clients what she thought of their way of life. If Ward was doing the same, she deserves to lose her appeal too. Dearest SkyLark! I don't think Mrs. Keeton wanted to "hurt feelings" or in any way be "unprofessional". Her lawyer is continuing to fight for her rights!
I think she knew exactly what she was doing. She has her answer in law. Her 'rights' have not been affected, they were only rights in her misguided head so why doesn't she shut up and go away! SHE WAS WRONG. END. OF!
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 11:03:45 GMT
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 15, 2011 19:00:46 GMT
Dearest SkyLark, Mrs. Keeton refuses to promote homosexuality and that is a legitimate position that should be protected by the first admendment.
I respectably disagree with the opinion that homosexuality is a choice. The video below represents the feelings of many people struggling with the homosexual syndrome and their wish to be cured from it. Why should a homosexual, who wishes to become heterosexual be forced to see a pro homosexual counselor because people like Miss Keeton and Mrs. Ward are prevented from becoming counselors Why prevent researching for a cure to homosexuality?
Again no one is trying to cure homosexuals, who prefer being that way and they should have the right to choose a counselor, who feels like they do.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 19:23:31 GMT
Anna, I'm not at all sure what a pro-homosexual counsellor is!
But if someone really wanted to change their sexual orientation, any counsellor should be able to respect this, and work with it. They shouldn't need a Ward or Keeton to see them through this.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 15, 2011 19:36:59 GMT
Anna, I'm not at all sure what a pro-homosexual counsellor is! But if someone really wanted to change their sexual orientation, any counsellor should be able to respect this, and work with it. They shouldn't need a Ward or Keeton to see them through this. A counselor, who refuses to see homosexuality as something undesirable, which is the contempary PC line, is of no use to someone, who in his/her heart sincerly wishes to change his/her sexual orientation.
This thread is about whether or not there can be diversity and dissenting viewpoints among counselors. Let the counsel seeker also have the freedom to pick and choose.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 15, 2011 4:10:15 GMT
www.annarbor.com/news/ypsilanti/democrats-bill-would-let-students-like-julea-ward-decline-to-counsel-clients-over-beliefs/ QUOTE: Democrat's bill would let students like Julea Ward decline to counsel clients over beliefsA Michigan state senator's bill would give students like Julea Ward the freedom to refuse to counsel a client based on religious beliefs or moral conviction, the Detroit Free Press reports. Ward, a graduate student, was kicked out of a counseling program at Eastern Michigan University when she declined to counsel a gay student, saying homosexuality was against her religious beliefs. Ward had referred the client to another counselor. Sen. Tupac Hunter, the Senate's Democratic floor leader, introduced the bill. In a statement, he said he believes it's wrong for a higher learning institution to dismiss a student "because of their refusal to compromise their own belief system," the Free Press reported. Ward, who sued EMU in 2009, lost in the lower courts, but Ward and her attorneys, the Alliance Defense Fund, a legal organization that works to uphold the rights of religious college students and faculty, appealed to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth District. EMU has said Ward was dismissed for violating the code of ethics of the American Counseling Association. Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette earlier this year released a statement supporting Ward. The American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan has weighed in on the side of EMU.
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Post by Lauren on Jul 15, 2011 4:48:04 GMT
This thread is about whether or not there can be diversity and dissenting viewpoints among counselors. Let the counsel seeker also have the freedom to pick and choose. [/color][/size][/quote] But that goes against the whole definition of a counsellor. I graduated from social work. The first thing we were ever taught was to be objective, and separate our own beliefs from that of the client. Showing certain emotions during counselling is seen as unprofessional. We have to objectively listen, with no prejudice, and then dispense advice from that. If Ward, hypothetically, was the only counsellor available at hand, i.e. all the other counsellors were with someone else, and a homosexual walked in in severe crisis what do you think would happen? If she turned that person away, because no one else could help them because everyone else is busy, what kind of counsellor is she? I imagine she would be fired, or at the very least, not hired as a counsellor at all.
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