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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2010 16:20:27 GMT
I used the term "peer" because I couldn't think how else to describe a member of the second chamber. It wouldn't be the Lords either, if it was elected.
But as you are so fond of trading insults, I have been wondering how you think elections would work.
The candidates can't make any promises for new legislation, because that is the job of the upper house. Why would the average person be interested in voting at all?
Most people don't vote for their MP as a person, but for the party he or she represents Even the local government and Euro elections reflect how the public feels about the government of the day.
So you would have the ridiculous situation of electing members of the second chamber on party politics, the very place where none should exist.
Of course, you could insist that candidates are not nominated by parties, or indeed mention their party allegiances on their election literatuire..but that wouldn't be realistic.
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Post by fretslider on Mar 17, 2010 19:09:06 GMT
I used the term "peer" because I couldn't think how else to describe a member of the second chamber. It wouldn't be the Lords either, if it was elected. But as you are so fond of trading insults, I have been wondering how you think elections would work. The candidates can't make any promises for new legislation, because that is the job of the upper house. Why would the average person be interested in voting at all? Most people don't vote for their MP as a person, but for the party he or she represents Even the local government and Euro elections reflect how the public feels about the government of the day. So you would have the ridiculous situation of electing members of the second chamber on party politics, the very place where none should exist. Of course, you could insist that candidates are not nominated by parties, or indeed mention their party allegiances on their election literatuire..but that wouldn't be realistic. Insult? If you say so. The upper chamber is a revising chamber, no? Its job is to scrutinise, to weed out and amend. What's to promise?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2010 19:27:55 GMT
Fretslider, I was feeling very crabby when I posted that. A glass of wine later and I can see that you were just indulging in a playful poke.
Exactly my point. Why would anyone be interested in voting to elect someone to such a body?
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Post by fretslider on Mar 17, 2010 21:52:58 GMT
Fretslider, I was feeling very crabby when I posted that. A glass of wine later and I can see that you were just indulging in a playful poke. Exactly my point. Why would anyone be interested in voting to elect someone to such a body? Wimmin! Because they would represent a different area to an MP. After 13 years of ill-thought-through, badly drafted and unscrutinised legislation from a bunch of second-hand car salesmen. A senator representing, say a county would have an appeal. Why do people bother to vote for the second chamber in other countries, is it because they're not English?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2010 8:34:40 GMT
Fretslider, I'm afraid don't know how the second chambers of other countries operate, so have to confess ignorance there. But if you bother to read my earlier posts...(men!!! ), you will see I have grave doubts that people will be interested in voting for a body which does not make decisions and can therefore not make promises. Most of us don't vote for an individual qua an individual at the moment, they vote for a political party which offer to deliver. This is reflected in the way they vote at local elections; how the government of the day is performing should make no difference to the colour of your local council but it does. Having a second chamber elected on party lines would be a major disaster and totally defeat its purpose. It needs to be made up of people detached from the party system, who have no further interest in supporting the decision makers. That's the big advantage of a life peerage system; once there, there is no chance of standing for the Commons.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2010 8:46:55 GMT
I've just had a quick look at Wiki and see that some other countries (including eg Canada) have non-elected second chambers, especially where the chamber has a similar function to the Lords.
Can you name one that does the same job and is elected?
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Post by jade on Mar 18, 2010 8:57:55 GMT
I absolutely do NOT want an elected second chamber. We elect our MPs so if anyone wants power through an election let her or him stand for that - lets not drain electable talent from Parliament!
If not birth based perhaps it should be merit based.
But who to decide merit?
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Post by mouse on Mar 18, 2010 9:43:10 GMT
well merit is one up on cash donations
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Post by fretslider on Mar 18, 2010 15:22:32 GMT
I've just had a quick look at Wiki and see that some other countries (including eg Canada) have non-elected second chambers, especially where the chamber has a similar function to the Lords. Can you name one that does the same job and is elected? France, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Holland, Poland........ www.venice.coe.int/docs/2006/CDL(2006)059rev-e.pdf
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Post by fretslider on Mar 18, 2010 15:23:32 GMT
I absolutely do NOT want an elected second chamber. We elect our MPs so if anyone wants power through an election let her or him stand for that - lets not drain electable talent from Parliament! If not birth based perhaps it should be merit based. But who to decide merit? If the matter is put to the people you'll be able to have your say, won't you.
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Post by jade on Mar 18, 2010 15:25:51 GMT
Indeed. I have of course already emailed Lillibet.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2010 17:33:32 GMT
I've just had a quick look at Wiki and see that some other countries (including eg Canada) have non-elected second chambers, especially where the chamber has a similar function to the Lords. Can you name one that does the same job and is elected? France, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Holland, Poland........ www.venice.coe.int/docs/2006/CDL(2006)059rev-e.pdfYes, but they are in the minority and at least some of those (Italy for example, I haven't checked them all) have wider powers than has the House of Lords.
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Post by fretslider on Mar 18, 2010 18:38:55 GMT
Yes, but they are in the minority and at least some of those (Italy for example, I haven't checked them all) have wider powers than has the House of Lords. As you know, I say the system has to be ripped and a fresh start made. That means everything must change, not just the ermine clad.
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Post by mouse on Mar 19, 2010 8:33:18 GMT
honesty and putting the country and people above self and party interest would certainly be a change
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Post by jade on Mar 19, 2010 8:36:32 GMT
SoWhere would you start?
o that possibly needs a whole new thread
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Post by mouse on Mar 19, 2010 12:27:16 GMT
start...get rid of career politos....take the civil service back out of politics..and the police and the judicery
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