♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 6, 2009 16:20:19 GMT
anna, after Miller's Court, it is just inconceivable to me and I remain unconvinced that he suddenly stopped of his own volition for a few years, then took to poisoning. The only reason Jack stopped was he killed himself/someone else killed him/he died of natural causes; he was incarcerated in prison or an asylum; he left the country. The trademark of the ripper consisted of an awareness of the risk factors, never forgetting the danger of getting caught or even noticed. He'd vanish immediately, if a potential witness was approaching! I agree with you that generally these murderers become addicted to murder, but some like the btk killer and ( i believe ) the ripper stop their murders for years. With the final murder of Marie Kelly the ripper was able to fully commit the horrific form of murder that he apparently lusted for. Perhaps that stilled his lust for a time. Again he had plenty of experience with surgery in Poland too! Surgeons develope a special relationship to the human body and body parts! I feel the ripper would have no trouble choosing another form of murder to avoid risks. Serial killers often do have a different relationship to the people they know personally. Really Gabriel, Chapman knew he'd be inmmediately suspect nr. 1, if he butchered his girl friends-and he did on occaison make threats to them with a knife. Chapman remains by far suspect nr. 1 in my book! The suspect Feigenbaum was also clearly a murderer, but his only proven murder absorbed his attention completely and he was easily caught. Also only hearsay evidence and a money making lawyer place him in WhiteChapel at the time the ripper was active. He probably never stepped on British soil.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 7, 2009 11:40:33 GMT
Yeah anna, when Chapman was arrested, Abberline was supposed to have remarked 'You've finally got Jack the Ripper' or words to that effect. OK. And I'll ask what a lot of others have asked. Why would a guy who cut throats then mutilated their bodies, taking parts of their internal organs with him, suddenly stop doing that for a few years, then start poisoning? Makes no sense whatever and I personally don't believe, because of that, that Chapman was Jack. Although I can understand part of Abberline's reasoning. Polish Jew, living in Whitechapel at the time, been a barber surgeon. But Chapman doesn't fit Jack's MO. Chapman was a sadist, he really enjoyed toying with his victims. Jack just killed them. Then he enjoyed himself. It wasn't the killing for him, it was the mutilation. Chapman had a personal relation to the women he poisoned. Chapman was also clever and the type of person who could get away with murders, unlike some of the more mentally unstable suspects.. Mutilating his 3 girlfriends would have made it obvious that they were murdered and he knew questions from the police would then be inevitable. The first Jack the Ripper victim was found very close to his living quarters. It's the general rule of serial killers that the first murder is the closest to their living quarters! He was indeed a murderer and in Poland was an assistant to a surgeon and had some knowledge of anatomy and with this knowledge could locate and remove body organs as the ripper did. Chapman did indeed have a personal relationship with his victims. That's what gave him his high. He enjoyed toying with them, poisoning them and watching them die. Jack had no personal relationship with his victims. They were a means to an end. He throttles them, he cuts their throats, then he gets down to his 'mission'. I enjoy discussing this with you anna. Bring it on about Chapman. Convince me. I don't 'know' who Jack was. I have an idea about the type of man he was and where he lived. I post on Casebook and the Ripper Forum so thanks for the links but I've read them before. But there are posters who haven't even heard of these sites so it's great you've posted the links. You are so passionate about Chapman so OK. Your ideas. Not someone else's. I'd be interested to hear. Cheers Gabriel
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 7, 2009 12:16:41 GMT
Hi Gabriel!
I can't prove that Chapman is 100% definitely the ripper. I feel he's clearly number 1 as far as the known suspects go. I think only him and Feigenbaum are proven murderers. Changing the murder tactic has been done by some serial killers, like the "murder mac killers" in California, who wanted to try torturing their next victim with acid.
I think the tabloids make more money on the English aristocrat and Sickert theories. Chapman was a banal type of person with a violent streak as his girlfriends discovered. Some physical abuse and threats with the knife, but he doesn't excite the imagination. Most serial killers are boring people, who couldn't play their own role in a Hollywood movie convincely. The Hannibal Lectors don't exist in reality.
Again as i mentioned the first victim was very close to his residence and this is a typical pattern of serial killers, who then seek their victims in an ever bigger circle around the area, where they have mobility. It's possible too that Chapman on occaisons greeted the girls briefly on the street and was not an unfamilar face to them.
Mrs. Cornwall's Sickert theory is just largely hysteria. Obviously Sickert as well as the suspect Kosminin phantasized about the ripper, but murder groupies are a dime a dozen. These people are satisfied living in a warped phantasy world, but never live these phantasies out. True they are both suspected of writing ripper letters to the police, but it's obvious that quite a number of deviant cranks were writing these letters.
Of course there is also an exception to the rule.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 7, 2009 12:23:26 GMT
Hi Gabriel! I can't prove that Chapman is 100% definitely the ripper. I feel he's clearly number 1 as far as the known suspects go. I think only him and Feigenbaum are proven murderers. Changing the murder tactic has been done by some serial killers, like the "murder mac killers" in California, who wanted to try torturing their next victim with acid. I think the tabloids make more money on the English aristocrat and Sickert theories. Chapman was a banal type of person with a violent streak as his girlfriends discovered. Some physical abuse and threats with the knife, but he doesn't excite the imagination. Most serial killers are boring people, who couldn't play their own role in a Hollywood movie convincely. The Hannibal Lectors don't exist in reality. Again as i mentioned the first victim was very close to his residence and this is a typical pattern of serial killers, who then seek their victims in an ever bigger circle around the area, where they have mobility. It's possible too that Chapman on occaisons greeted the girls briefly on the street and was not an unfamilar face to them. Mrs. Cornwall's Sickert theory is just largely hysteria. Obviously Sickert as well as the suspect Kosminin phantasized about the ripper, but murder groupies are a dime a dozen. These people are satisfied living in a warped phantasy world, but never live these phantasies out. True they are both suspected of writing ripper letters to the police, but it's obvious that quite a number of deviant cranks were writing these letters. Of course there is also an exception to the rule. But why do you have Chapman (Severin Klosowski) as your prime suspect? You're right, murderers do change the way they kill but not a serial murderer like Jack. Jack knew he wanted to kill. He didn't care which women he killed. He wasn't interested in them as people. He didn't have that personal connection you are quite right that Chapman had with his wives. Jack was in it for his jollies. And he got them after he slit their throats.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 7, 2009 12:48:08 GMT
Hi Gabriel! I can't prove that Chapman is 100% definitely the ripper. I feel he's clearly number 1 as far as the known suspects go. I think only him and Feigenbaum are proven murderers. Changing the murder tactic has been done by some serial killers, like the "murder mac killers" in California, who wanted to try torturing their next victim with acid. I think the tabloids make more money on the English aristocrat and Sickert theories. Chapman was a banal type of person with a violent streak as his girlfriends discovered. Some physical abuse and threats with the knife, but he doesn't excite the imagination. Most serial killers are boring people, who couldn't play their own role in a Hollywood movie convincely. The Hannibal Lectors don't exist in reality. Again as i mentioned the first victim was very close to his residence and this is a typical pattern of serial killers, who then seek their victims in an ever bigger circle around the area, where they have mobility. It's possible too that Chapman on occaisons greeted the girls briefly on the street and was not an unfamilar face to them. Mrs. Cornwall's Sickert theory is just largely hysteria. Obviously Sickert as well as the suspect Kosminin phantasized about the ripper, but murder groupies are a dime a dozen. These people are satisfied living in a warped phantasy world, but never live these phantasies out. True they are both suspected of writing ripper letters to the police, but it's obvious that quite a number of deviant cranks were writing these letters. Of course there is also an exception to the rule. But why do you have Chapman (Severin Klosowski) as your prime suspect? You're right, murderers do change the way they kill but not a serial murderer like Jack. Jack knew he wanted to kill. He didn't care which women he killed. He wasn't interested in them as people. He didn't have that personal connection you are quite right that Chapman had with his wives. Jack was in it for his jollies. And he got them after he slit their throats. If the ripper was really so unaware of the danger of getting caught as you suggest he would have continued in that stereotypical manner. Perhaps the murder of Mary Kelly satisfied his desire to carve someone up in a cruel manner and he was ready to try new forms of murder. How else could he have had a chance to get away with murdering his girlfriends without changing the ripper modus operandi?? Apparently he found poisoning them satisfying too since he committed these murders 3 times and almost got away with it. Had Chapman poisoned any of the prostitutes after Mary Kelly's murder i'm sure their deaths would have been dismissed routinely. Many of the girls had serious alcohol problems, not to mention the diseases, suicides and other life shortening risk factors. Since he lived in WhiteChapel he was not an unfamilar face and the assumption that he didn't even have a fleeting relation to the local prostitutes-like the nice bloke, who would greet them nicely while passing by-is all just an assumption.
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Post by everso on Oct 7, 2009 22:27:17 GMT
Dockworkers would have had an extraordinarily hard life and it wouldn't have been fulltime work, I assume. They would have been hired when there was work. I think I'm correct. Yes, you are correct. Often it was a case of who you knew. My dad was a docker and before de-casualisation (in the 60s) it was always touch and go as to whether he'd have a full week's work. Some weeks he'd earn good money, other weeks not much at all.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 8, 2009 5:44:41 GMT
This is an interesting subject. I don't know much about it but I watched the Cornwell programme on BBC about Sickert and she didn't seem to be able to prove anything. The theory was fascinating anyway. Someone has youtubed it in 6 episodes if anyone wants to watch it. 1/6 Gosh Trubble! I got around to watching the rest of Mrs. Cornwell's videos! I had a good impression of her in the first video! Her voice is almost identical to Jodi Foster's voice and i immediately thought of the film "The Silence of the Lambs" and how Jodi Foster, playing the role of an FBI agent tracked down a serial killer. I was very disappointed when Cornwell tried to dismiss the evidence that the ripper had a knowledge of anatomy! She claims the ripper would just slash, grab by coincidence and stash key human organs away . Her case against Sickert is just a shadow of a shadow! Imagine her presenting Sickert's paintings to a jury with comments like "Doesn't this look like it could be blood".. Oh, we must have a conviction! Yeah Sickert was creepy and seemed to be fascinated by murder scenes, but aren't a lot of tabloid readers like that. The ripper was alledged to be the first modern serial killer! OK, are there any serial killers among the suspects? Yes! George Chapman! The 2nd modern serial killer? Or suspect number 1? The problem with "Ripperologists" is that they want to get into the head of the ripper and Chapman disappoints them so they refuse to accept the obvious!
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Post by gabriel on Oct 8, 2009 9:59:33 GMT
anna, Jack wasn't the 1st serial killer. Mary Ann Cotton killed a few dozen and Dr William Palmer was in for his fair share. They both killed around about 20 - 30 years before Jack. They were both poisoners. They had intimate relationships with their victims. Just like Chapman/Klosowski. He was a classic poisoner. He was not a knife wielder like Jack. Chapman did not kill on the streets. Chapman did not go looking for victims. None of the poisoners do. They are very organised. They kill people they have access to and they have a very strong chance of not being suspected. Unless they get careless or greedy. Which is why we know that Cotton, Palmer and Chapman were poisoners.
Jack was a disorganised killer and he ran huge risks. I don't think he cared whether or not he was caught. Once the blood lust was on him he couldn't have cared less. There was no planning to Jack's murders. There were the similarities which allow us to follow this single murderer.
everso, are there any insights you can share with us about the East End and Docklands around your great-grandmother's time? Anything she might have shared with your family?
You see, I reckon Jack was just an ordinary bloke (with a lot of problems). He wasn't rich, he wasn't well born, probably not well educated. He wasn't swanning around Whitechapel in a cape, wearing evening clothes and flashing jewellery. He wouldn't have lasted 5 mins before he'd lost the lot. It was a rough place, especially Dorset St. Even the cops didn't like walking down there unless they were in number.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 8, 2009 14:09:46 GMT
Dearest Gabriel! If the ripper didn't care about being caught he wouldn't have vanished as he did when a potential witness was approaching. He would have continued his slashing with witnesses crying for help and a crowd of spectators gathering as in the Feigenbaum case. I agree Jack was primitive and very violent, but like a savage lone wolf he fled when detected. I believe the murder of Martha Tabram ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Tabram ), which occured near Chapman's shop was the first ripper murder. When Chapman was living in the US the ripper type murder of Carrie Brown ( www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-carrieb.html ) occured in New York, which was a short train ride away from Jersey City and his barber shop. The author of the link i quote below places ripper murders in Jersey City, but this may be incorrect. www.casebook.org/ripper_media/rps.trialgeorge.html QUOTE: JACK-THE-RIPPER CHAPMAN 1 ) First murder of the series committed, in August, 1888. Chapman arrived in London some time in 1888; worked and lived in Whitechapel. 2 ) Other murders committed during 1888. During this time Chapman was within easy reach of the scenes of these murders. It was thought that Jack-the-Ripper had medical knowledge. Chapman had been a medical student. 3 ) Description given of the man seen with the woman Kelly: "Height, 5 ft. 6in.; age, 34 or 35; dark complexion, with moustache curled at ends." This is a most faithful description of Chapman. 4 ) The Americanisms in the letter and card written to the police. Chapman passed himself off as an American and used Americanisms in conversation. The grim and callous joking tone of the messages. Chapman was very callous, and was in the habit of indulging in pleasantries of this sort. 5 ) Last murder in London, July, 1889. Chapman still in the vicinity. No Ripper murders in England, but similar murders in America, in the locality of Jersey City. Chapman and his wife left in May, 1890, for America, where Chapman opened a barber's shop at Jersey City. At the beginning of 1892 Ripper murders cease in America. Chapman left America and returned to London in May, 1892. It is evident that before he committed his last murder Jaek-the-Ripper realised that the game was becoming too hazardous; this is borne out by the fact that considerable time elapsed between the commission of his later murders, and his last crime was obviously perpetrated indoors to afford him greater security. If Chapman was actually Jack-the-Ripper, poisoning, as a much safer means of killing, might easily have suggested itself to him. Having changed his method, it became, of course, imperative that he should seek an entirely different class of victim. Chief Inspector Abberline, who had charge of the investigations into the East End murders, thought that Chapman and Jack-the-Ripper were one and the same person. He closely questioned the Polish woman, Lucy Baderaki, about Chapman's nightly habits at the time of the murders. She said that he was often out until three or four o'clock in the morning, but she could throw little light upon these absences. Both Inspector Abberline and Inspector Godley spent years in investigating the "Ripper" murders. Abberline never wavered in his firm conviction that Chapman and Jack-the-Ripper were one and the same person. When Godley arrested Chapman Abberline said to his confrere "You've got Jack-the-Ripper at last!" That Chapman's career coincides exactly with the movements and operations of Jack-the-Ripper must appeal strongly to all who endeavour to throw light upon the shadows of the latter's obscurity. The whole of Chapman's life cannot be made quite clear. At his trial the prosecution proved that he murdered Mrs. Spink, Bessie Taylor, and Maud Marsh; but as they made no effort to discover others no one can say, with confidence, how many murders he committed. A reasonable case for supposing that Chapman was Jack-the-Ripper has, at least, been furnished. At that the subject must be left, without material proof of the connection. Upon that strange period of Chapman's career, when he worked and lodged in Whitechapel, no new light can be shed, and the identity of Jack-the-Ripper will for ever remain a mystery.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 8, 2009 14:20:49 GMT
He was not a knife wielder like Jack. Chapman did not kill on the streets. . This statement is apparently incorrect! www.suite101.com/lesson.cfm/18593/1947/3 QUOTE: George Chapman George Chapman AKA Severin Klosowski (not to be confused with Aaron Kosminski) fit the police description of the people who alleged to have seen Jack. A Polish Jew, hairdresser and barber by trade, and resident of Whitechapel, he was a strong suspect for the crimes. The body of Martha Tabram, a woman murdered shortly before the Ripper killings, was found close to his shop. He was known to have a violent, homicidal streak. He was accused of poisoning three women, and was convicted of one murder, for which he was hanged. He was single at the time of the murders and would have been able to roam around at night. The only drawback to his being the Ripper is that he was much younger than the witnesses described. Chapman was only twenty three in 1888. Though Chapman was known for poisoning women, he had attempted to murder his first wife with a knife. It is possible that he switched to poisoning women to escape detection when Jack the Ripper gained too much notoriety.
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Post by sadie1263 on Oct 8, 2009 15:33:32 GMT
Hmmmmm....the two of you are making this very interesting. I agree that Cornwell's show was interesting.......but to me it seemed that she made up her mind from the beginning that Seikart was the killer and so she interpreted everything to fit that theory instead of letting the evidence speak for itself. Course if I had a few million dollars of my own riding on the theory I might be tempted to do that also.
Going to have to refresh my memory on all of this so I can join the debate.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 9, 2009 2:39:00 GMT
Welcome to the case detective Sadie! This 6 part documentary about the ripper case sticks more to the facts than Cornwell's speculations. On the list below are the known and imagined suspects! As you see my number 1 suspect Chapman is rated number 6 so there are obviously a lot of disagreements on how to interpret the evidence and who to suspect. BTW you can vote on who you think is suspect number 1 by going to the link. www.casebook.org/suspects/suspect_av.html QUOTE: 1. Maybrick, James 2. Tumblety, Francis 3. Sickert Walter 4. Royal Conspiracy 5. Barnett, Joseph 6. Chapman, George 7. Kosminski, Aaron 8. Lodger, The 9. Druitt, Montague John 10. Jill the Ripper 11. Bury, W.H. 12. Thompson, Francis 13. Stephenson, R. D'Onston 14. Ostrog, Michael 15. Hutchinson, George (Br.) 16. Albert Victor, Prince 17. Cream, Dr. Thomas Neill 18. Kelly, James 19. Stephen, James Kenneth 20. Pedachenko, Dr. 21. Deeming, Frederick Bailey 22. Carroll, Lewis
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Post by gabriel on Oct 9, 2009 7:44:18 GMT
Dearest Gabriel! If the ripper didn't care about being caught he wouldn't have vanished as he did when a potential witness was approaching.He would have continued his slashing with witnesses crying for help and a crowd of spectators gathering as in the Feigenbaum case. I agree Jack was primitive and very violent, but like a savage lone wolf he fled when detected. I believe the murder of Martha Tabram ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Tabram ), which occured near Chapman's shop was the first ripper murder. When Chapman was living in the US the ripper type murder of Carrie Brown ( www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-carrieb.html ) occured in New York, which was a short train ride away from Jersey City and his barber shop. The author of the link i quote below places ripper murders in Jersey City, but this may be incorrect. www.casebook.org/ripper_media/rps.trialgeorge.html QUOTE: JACK-THE-RIPPER CHAPMAN 1 ) First murder of the series committed, in August, 1888. Chapman arrived in London some time in 1888; worked and lived in Whitechapel. 2 ) Other murders committed during 1888. During this time Chapman was within easy reach of the scenes of these murders. It was thought that Jack-the-Ripper had medical knowledge. Chapman had been a medical student. 3 ) Description given of the man seen with the woman Kelly: "Height, 5 ft. 6in.; age, 34 or 35; dark complexion, with moustache curled at ends." This is a most faithful description of Chapman. 4 ) The Americanisms in the letter and card written to the police. Chapman passed himself off as an American and used Americanisms in conversation. The grim and callous joking tone of the messages. Chapman was very callous, and was in the habit of indulging in pleasantries of this sort. 5 ) Last murder in London, July, 1889. Chapman still in the vicinity. No Ripper murders in England, but similar murders in America, in the locality of Jersey City. Chapman and his wife left in May, 1890, for America, where Chapman opened a barber's shop at Jersey City. At the beginning of 1892 Ripper murders cease in America. Chapman left America and returned to London in May, 1892. It is evident that before he committed his last murder Jaek-the-Ripper realised that the game was becoming too hazardous; this is borne out by the fact that considerable time elapsed between the commission of his later murders, and his last crime was obviously perpetrated indoors to afford him greater security. If Chapman was actually Jack-the-Ripper, poisoning, as a much safer means of killing, might easily have suggested itself to him. Having changed his method, it became, of course, imperative that he should seek an entirely different class of victim. Chief Inspector Abberline, who had charge of the investigations into the East End murders, thought that Chapman and Jack-the-Ripper were one and the same person. He closely questioned the Polish woman, Lucy Baderaki, about Chapman's nightly habits at the time of the murders. She said that he was often out until three or four o'clock in the morning, but she could throw little light upon these absences. Both Inspector Abberline and Inspector Godley spent years in investigating the "Ripper" murders. Abberline never wavered in his firm conviction that Chapman and Jack-the-Ripper were one and the same person. When Godley arrested Chapman Abberline said to his confrere "You've got Jack-the-Ripper at last!" That Chapman's career coincides exactly with the movements and operations of Jack-the-Ripper must appeal strongly to all who endeavour to throw light upon the shadows of the latter's obscurity. The whole of Chapman's life cannot be made quite clear. At his trial the prosecution proved that he murdered Mrs. Spink, Bessie Taylor, and Maud Marsh; but as they made no effort to discover others no one can say, with confidence, how many murders he committed. A reasonable case for supposing that Chapman was Jack-the-Ripper has, at least, been furnished. At that the subject must be left, without material proof of the connection. Upon that strange period of Chapman's career, when he worked and lodged in Whitechapel, no new light can be shed, and the identity of Jack-the-Ripper will for ever remain a mystery. anna, which of the murders are you talking about here? Tabram I don't believe was Jack's work but still, no-one saw a man with her. Nichols - no-one saw a man with her. Chapman - Mrs Long testified at the inquest she saw Chapman with a man outside 29 Hanbury St not long before Chapman died. The man didn't run away.
Stride - multiple witness (but probably the only reliable one was Israel Schwartz) saw Stride with multiple men before she died. Cathy Eddowes - no man was sighted but I think Jack was in Mitre Sq and in the middle of his mission when the PC's looked in on their patrols. Kelly - seen with mutiple men by multiple witnesses.
So where is any possible Jack scarpering when anyone else showed up ? If you have evidence for this I'd really be interested.
And Jack like murders in Jersey City? Do you have dates and names? I've heard of one murder that authors have tried to tie in to Jack (to back up their theories). A pro, circa 1890 in NY city. Again, if you have new info, I'd be interested.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 9, 2009 11:33:34 GMT
He was not a knife wielder like Jack. Chapman did not kill on the streets. . This statement is apparently incorrect! www.suite101.com/lesson.cfm/18593/1947/3 QUOTE: George Chapman George Chapman AKA Severin Klosowski (not to be confused with Aaron Kosminski) fit the police description of the people who alleged to have seen Jack. A Polish Jew, hairdresser and barber by trade, and resident of Whitechapel, he was a strong suspect for the crimes. The body of Martha Tabram, a woman murdered shortly before the Ripper killings, was found close to his shop. He was known to have a violent, homicidal streak. He was accused of poisoning three women, and was convicted of one murder, for which he was hanged. He was single at the time of the murders and would have been able to roam around at night. The only drawback to his being the Ripper is that he was much younger than the witnesses described. Chapman was only twenty three in 1888. Though Chapman was known for poisoning women, he had attempted to murder his first wife with a knife. It is possible that he switched to poisoning women to escape detection when Jack the Ripper gained too much notoriety. anna, are you tallking about Lucy Baderski, Klosowski's 1st and probably only legal wife? They moved to New Jersey but she left him there and returned to London. He followed later then between 1895 and 1903 he poisoned the 3 women who lived with him as his 'wives'. Where did he attack Lucy with a knife? I'm certain it wasn't on the street. Klosowski was a subtle murderer, he used poison.
1888 to 1895 that's 7 years. So your theory is that Jack, after what he did in Miller's Court, just stops killing for 7 years (even maybe trying an unproven murder with a knife). Then he suddenly springs back into action by poisoning 3 women over an 8 year period?
I'm way away from being convinced. This just doesn't follow any pattern that we know about serial killers. And you must remember, all of this speculation about Klosowski comes from Abberline who'd been out of the force and living in retirement in Devon for at least 10 years. He was probably looking for a reasonable suspect and sure, Klosowski, why not? But Abberline wasn't in the 'know' any more and it's a real pity he opened his mouth at all. Because all he really did was muddy the waters.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 9, 2009 21:25:00 GMT
Dearest Gabriel! Who's your candidate for suspect number 1 as the ripper? As far as the Carrie Brown murder goes, which Chapman could have committed apparently this was done in New York, which was a short train ride from Jersey City. Yes there are plenty of mistaken claims that get quoted ad absurdum. The link i quoted on the Carrie Brown murder in the post you quoted gives a suspect description, which could apply to Chapman. I doubt that prostitution existed in Jersey City so if Chapman was the ripper he'd probably have to take the short train ride to NY. A witness raises suspicions that he was on a train back to Jersey City after the murder of Carrie Brown. One fact of serial killers is that they generally find victims at an ever increasing distance from their residence to avoid getting caught. As far as Chapman's knife attack on his first wife goes this link, which you should read in it's entirity describes it! The link confirms that Chapman's violent domestic abuse continued with his other wives! www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/ripper/chapman_17.html QUOTE: He ( Chapman ) first showed his violent streak when he attacked his wife. She claimed that he "held her down on the bed, and pressed his face against her mouth to keep her from screaming. At that moment a customer entered the shop immediately in front of the room, and Klosowski got up to attend him. Lucy chanced to see a handle protruding from underneath the pillow. She found to her horror that it was a sharp and formidable knife, which she promptly hid. Later, deliberately he told her that he meant to have cut her head off, and pointed to a place in the room where he meant to have buried her. She said, "'But the neighbors would have asked where I had gone to." "Oh," retorted Klosowski calmly. "I should simply have told them that you had gone back to New York."
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 10, 2009 4:26:24 GMT
Wasn't there a suggestion that Jack had to be a woman, because otherwise the victims would never have been alone with him - especially in the later stages of his reign of terror? Dearest SkyLark! "Jill the Ripper" is the name given to this theoretical female suspect. The Ripper was obviously pretty strong to cut so deeply through his victims necks, while they were probably struggling. I think most females and the weaker male ripper suspects could be ruled out because of this. But i've been googling around a bit and found this. The suspect Pearcey did commit 2 knife murders as the link shows. Mrs. Mary Pearcey www.casebook.org/suspects/jill.html
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Post by gabriel on Oct 10, 2009 5:25:01 GMT
Dearest Gabriel! Who's your candidate for suspect number 1 as the ripper? As far as the Carrie Brown murder goes, which Chapman could have committed apparently this was done in New York, which was a short train ride from Jersey City. Yes there are plenty of mistaken claims that get quoted ad absurdum. The link i quoted on the Carrie Brown murder in the post you quoted gives a suspect description, which could apply to Chapman. I doubt that prostitution existed in Jersey City so if Chapman was the ripper he'd probably have to take the short train ride to NY. A witness raises suspicions that he was on a train back to Jersey City after the murder of Carrie Brown. One fact of serial killers is that they generally find victims at an ever increasing distance from their residence to avoid getting caught. As far as Chapman's knife attack on his first wife goes this link, which you should read in it's entirity describes it! The link confirms that Chapman's violent domestic abuse continued with his other wives! www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/ripper/chapman_17.html QUOTE: He ( Chapman ) first showed his violent streak when he attacked his wife. She claimed that he "held her down on the bed, and pressed his face against her mouth to keep her from screaming. At that moment a customer entered the shop immediately in front of the room, and Klosowski got up to attend him. Lucy chanced to see a handle protruding from underneath the pillow. She found to her horror that it was a sharp and formidable knife, which she promptly hid. Later, deliberately he told her that he meant to have cut her head off, and pointed to a place in the room where he meant to have buried her. She said, "'But the neighbors would have asked where I had gone to." "Oh," retorted Klosowski calmly. "I should simply have told them that you had gone back to New York." anna, this doesn't say that he attacked her with a knife. He obviously was abusive in his relationships (let's face it, you don't go round poisoning your partners just because you're bored). Sounds to me like part of his sadistic gamesmanship. This does not prove he attacked Lucy with a knife. If he was really going to kill her, he'd render her unconscious, deal with the customer, lock the shop, then either kill her while she was out to it or more likely wake her up so he could have his fun. You suggest that he took a train to NJ to kill this woman, any woman, then calmly didn't bother with any more knife attacks. That just doesn't add up. These guys can't help themselves. Look at the night of the double murder when Jack did Stride and Eddowes. He was, I'm convinced, disturbed with Stride, that's why he went back on the prowl. His rage, his need to kill was so strong that he had to find another woman and he did, within the next hour. That Jack wouldn't take a train to NJ then calmly return to NY then sail back to England, wait a few years, then start poisoning.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 10, 2009 5:39:33 GMT
I don't believe a woman was responsible. Why would a pro go with a woman when the pro's out scouting for customers? The victims would have initially resisted but Jack throttled them first into unconsciousness. Then, on the ground, head turned away from him, throat cut with the knife, arterial blood pumping away from him, and Jack gets his jollies.
Mary Pearcey killed her lover's wife and his daughter out of jealousy. Nothing at all to do with Jack.
anna, I stopped having a 'suspect' for Jack years ago. Like I posted earlier, I believe I can describe Jack - where he lived, his age, possibly his motivation - but I can't put a name to him. So many 'theories' are based on trying to cram facts to fit a suspect and that's not the way to run an investigation. That's what Stephen Knight did in the 70's and that's what Cornwell's trying to do this decade. In the 90's, it was that goddawful Maybrick diary.
I can't prove Klowowski wasn't Jack. And Abberline's comments as I said muddy the waters. But I remain unconvinced that a man would wield a knife on the streets after pros, wait years and years, then turn to poison.
You can't overlook McNaughton. He named Druitt, Ostrog and Klosminski. I have spent many years believing in Druitt as Jack but I have big reservations on that now.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 10, 2009 6:35:06 GMT
I don't believe a woman was responsible. Why would a pro go with a woman when the pro's out scouting for customers? The victims would have initially resisted but Jack throttled them first into unconsciousness. Then, on the ground, head turned away from him, throat cut with the knife, arterial blood pumping away from him, and Jack gets his jollies. Mary Pearcey killed her lover's wife and his daughter out of jealousy. Nothing at all to do with Jack. anna, I stopped having a 'suspect' for Jack years ago. Like I posted earlier, I believe I can describe Jack - where he lived, his age, possibly his motivation - but I can't put a name to him. So many 'theories' are based on trying to cram facts to fit a suspect and that's not the way to run an investigation. That's what Stephen Knight did in the 70's and that's what Cornwell's trying to do this decade. In the 90's, it was that goddawful Maybrick diary. I can't prove Klowowski wasn't Jack. And Abberline's comments as I said muddy the waters. But I remain unconvinced that a man would wield a knife on the streets after pros, wait years and years, then turn to poison. You can't overlook McNaughton. He named Druitt, Ostrog and Klosminski. I have spent many years believing in Druitt as Jack but I have big reservations on that now. No i don't think Pearcey is a serious suspect! A jealousy murder and perhaps the child was probably a witness, who she eliminated. As far as Chapman goes i don't understand why some people feel that the fact that he was proven to have murdered his 3 girlfriends with poison makes him less of a ripper suspect. I think the jump from being a ripper type serial killer to a poisoner serial killer is much shorter than for a non-murderer to become a serial killer. Serial killers are extremely rare creatures-about one in a million. I admit we don't have solid evidence to convict Chapman of the ripper murderers, but he's still suspect number 1 on my list. Klosminski is often associated with the kosher slaughter of cattle with throat cutting.. a lot of anti-Jewish sentiment surrounds him. And he was truly insane. I'm not familar with Druitt. Ostrog just seems like such a weakling-which the ripper undoubtable wasn't, but if it's true that he carried around a collection of surgical cutting instruments that does raise an eyebrow.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 10, 2009 11:19:15 GMT
Sir Melville McNaughton wrote a confidential memo around about 1892 to the Home Office. It was dealing with a bloke called Cuthbert who was wandering around poking girls in the bum with a knife. He wanted to make sure they didn't think this Cuthbert was Jack (which he wasn't) and he gave 'his' 3 top suspects.
Ostrog I entirely dismiss because he was basically a thief and any violence he may have demonstrated was to get him out of being found to be a thief.
Kosminski can't be proved despite the best efforts of Fido, Begg and the other great researchers who have spent 20 or so years trawling through the archives of asylums, workhouses etc. But, IMO, a man like Kosminski is closer to Jack than Maybrick or Prince Eddie.
Montague John Druitt was a barrister and teacher. He was 31 years old when he drowned himself in the Thames in Dec '88.
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