♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 14, 2010 16:50:03 GMT
If he cared about being caught then why would he have risked Chapman in the backyard of a multi tenanted house in Hanbury St when it was getting light? Or Stride in Dutfield's yard with a large group of men singing and drinking on the other side of the wall? Or Eddowes when he was seen outside Mitre Sq with her? Or even Kelly, when he took the really incredible risk of going indoors? The only one he really had no risk with was Polly Nicholls, his 1st, because no-one expected it. I think you are crediting Jack with more intelligence and ingenuity than he possessed. You could ask the same question about a flasher around a Kindergarten. With the exception of Kelly he never seemed to have his attention focused fully on the victims. He knew where to cut and was always looking around for approaching witnesses. He vanished when a witness desturbed him by the Stride murder. Just the fact that he silenced with victims with his vice like stranglehold shows he took precautions-no crys for help.
You think he killed in these populated areas because he didn't care about being arrested. I suspect he felt an extra thrill murdering and mutilating in populated areas. An exhibitionistic gambler. Beating the odds of getting caught bloated his ego.
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Sept 15, 2010 9:11:57 GMT
If he cared about being caught then why would he have risked Chapman in the backyard of a multi tenanted house in Hanbury St when it was getting light? Or Stride in Dutfield's yard with a large group of men singing and drinking on the other side of the wall? Or Eddowes when he was seen outside Mitre Sq with her? Or even Kelly, when he took the really incredible risk of going indoors? The only one he really had no risk with was Polly Nicholls, his 1st, because no-one expected it. I think you are crediting Jack with more intelligence and ingenuity than he possessed. You could ask the same question about a flasher around a Kindergarten. With the exception of Kelly he never seemed to have his attention focused fully on the victims. He knew where to cut and was always looking around for approaching witnesses. He vanished when a witness desturbed him by the Strider murder. Just the fact that he silenced with victims with his vice like stranglehold shows he took precautions-no crys for help. You think he killed in these populated areas because he didn't care about being arrested. I suspect he felt an extra thrill murdering and mutilating in populated areas. An exhibitionistic gambler. Beating the odds of getting caught bloated his ego.Well now, I think he slithered back into the shadows in Dutfield's Yard because he knew he couldn't get to work on Stride. He was interrupted and frustrated so he went hunting again. That's my take. I think he strangled them 1st because he either knew beforehand or worked out accidentally that that would stop the arterial blood spurting out, especially on him. I don't think it had anything to do with his keeping them quiet so he wouldn't be observed.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 15, 2010 10:28:11 GMT
Your opinion ( and Ressler's ) isn't unreasonable, but if you're right i think it's amazing that he never got caught or at least seen by a witness, who could accurately describe him. It's not even clear if the "witnesses" saw the ripper or an innocent man.
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Sept 16, 2010 7:53:26 GMT
The night of the double murder, 3 Jewish friends were walking along Duke St. www.ask.com/wiki/Joseph_Lawende?qsrc=3044On the night of the murder of Catherine Eddowes in Mitre Square, Lawende and two companions, Joseph Hyam Levy, a butcher, and Henry Harris, a furniture dealer, all three Jewish, left the Imperial Club in Duke's Place just after 1.30 a.m, the time having been checked by the club clock and by Lawende's pocket watch. About fifteen yards from the club, at the entrance to Church Passage, which led to Mitre Square, they saw a man and a woman talking quietly. The woman had her hand on the man's chest. Lawende would later identify the woman as Eddowes by her clothing when he was later shown her body at the mortuary. Lawende walked slightly apart from his two friends, and was the only one to take any notice of the man's appearance, having glanced at him briefly. He described the man as being of average build and looking rather like a sailor, wearing a pepper-and-salt coloured loose fitting jacket, a grey cloth cap with a matching peak, and a reddish neckerchief. Lawende said that the man was aged about 30, with a fair complexion and moustache, being about 5ft 7-8 inches tall. He did not believe he would be able to identify the man again. The Times newspaper claimed that Lawende had said that the man was about 5ft 9 inches and was of a shabby appearance. The Metropolitan Police clearly regarded Lawende as an important witness, because they kept him away from the press and, at the inquest into Eddowes' murder, City Solicitor Crawford said, "Unless the jury wish it, I have special reason for not giving details as to the appearance of this man" (i.e. the killer). The Coroner agreed and Lawende merely provided a description of the man's clothes. Major Henry Smith of the City Police, in whose area Eddowes had been killed, was impressed by the fact that Lawende was disinterested in the previous 'Ripper' murders, and would not be drawn with leading questions. Smith believed him to be a credible witness.[2] I believe without a doubt that the man Lawende saw was Jack. Which is where Kosminski comes in because the story goes that Lawende would not identify Kosminski as the man he saw because he didn't want to put a fellow Jew into harm's way.
I'm not saying Kosminski was Jack. Because a lot of research has gone into this and he hasn't been able to be tied in convincingly. But someone like Kosminski is my best bet for Jack.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 17, 2010 1:31:46 GMT
The night of the double murder, 3 Jewish friends were walking along Duke St. www.ask.com/wiki/Joseph_Lawende?qsrc=3044On the night of the murder of Catherine Eddowes in Mitre Square, Lawende and two companions, Joseph Hyam Levy, a butcher, and Henry Harris, a furniture dealer, all three Jewish, left the Imperial Club in Duke's Place just after 1.30 a.m, the time having been checked by the club clock and by Lawende's pocket watch. About fifteen yards from the club, at the entrance to Church Passage, which led to Mitre Square, they saw a man and a woman talking quietly. The woman had her hand on the man's chest. Lawende would later identify the woman as Eddowes by her clothing when he was later shown her body at the mortuary. Lawende walked slightly apart from his two friends, and was the only one to take any notice of the man's appearance, having glanced at him briefly. He described the man as being of average build and looking rather like a sailor, wearing a pepper-and-salt coloured loose fitting jacket, a grey cloth cap with a matching peak, and a reddish neckerchief. Lawende said that the man was aged about 30, with a fair complexion and moustache, being about 5ft 7-8 inches tall. He did not believe he would be able to identify the man again. The Times newspaper claimed that Lawende had said that the man was about 5ft 9 inches and was of a shabby appearance. The Metropolitan Police clearly regarded Lawende as an important witness, because they kept him away from the press and, at the inquest into Eddowes' murder, City Solicitor Crawford said, "Unless the jury wish it, I have special reason for not giving details as to the appearance of this man" (i.e. the killer). The Coroner agreed and Lawende merely provided a description of the man's clothes. Major Henry Smith of the City Police, in whose area Eddowes had been killed, was impressed by the fact that Lawende was disinterested in the previous 'Ripper' murders, and would not be drawn with leading questions. Smith believed him to be a credible witness.[2] I believe without a doubt that the man Lawende saw was Jack. Which is where Kosminski comes in because the story goes that Lawende would not identify Kosminski as the man he saw because he didn't want to put a fellow Jew into harm's way.
I'm not saying Kosminski was Jack. Because a lot of research has gone into this and he hasn't been able to be tied in convincingly. But someone like Kosminski is my best bet for Jack. I have to respectfully dissent here Gabe! In a court of law this falls apart like a house of cards. Because the story goes that....... I instantly wonder if Macnaughten was behind this "as the story goes.."
Who witnessed Lawende making this statement? Statements get terribly garbled or even invented when they go through the grapevine. Lawende didn't witness the murder either so i can't share your belief that that was Jack with 100% certainty.
Kosminski frail and weakened from his derelict existence doesn't seem like someone, who could silence a women with a vice like stranglehold.. The rest of his life in the insane asylum showed him to be harmless. I still think this is an example of Victorian era profiling: "The dirty street bum did it!"
jtr was a weekend killer, which suggests that he was employed!
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Sept 17, 2010 6:42:56 GMT
I wasn't offering that as proof. Of anything. Except the fact that I believe Jack was the man Lawende and Levy saw with Eddowes outside Mitre Sq. In the theories and mythology woven around Jack, this is where Kosminski is brought in by those who believe he was Jack. And the reason why he wasn't identified. It's not my theory. It's just out there.
You said you found it incredible he'd never been seen by a witness who could identify him. Well, IMO, he was. I don't think he was scared away from Dutfield's Yard. He knew he wouldn't get a chance to do what he wanted to do to Stride. So he went hunting again.
It's how these guys operate. Jack wasn't ready to go to bed emptyhanded. He had to get his trophies.
And I'm not arguing against his being employed. Far from it. And as you said, he did kill Fri, Sat, Sun.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 17, 2010 13:19:52 GMT
I wasn't offering that as proof. Of anything. Except the fact that I believe Jack was the man Lawende and Levy saw with Eddowes outside Mitre Sq. In the theories and mythology woven around Jack, this is where Kosminski is brought in by those who believe he was Jack. And the reason why he wasn't identified. It's not my theory. It's just out there. You said you found it incredible he'd never been seen by a witness who could identify him. Well, IMO, he was. I don't think he was scared away from Dutfield's Yard. He knew he wouldn't get a chance to do what he wanted to do to Stride. So he went hunting again. It's how these guys operate. Jack wasn't ready to go to bed emptyhanded. He had to get his trophies. And I'm not arguing against his being employed. Far from it. And as you said, he did kill Fri, Sat, Sun. Hi Gabe! It's reasonable to believe or suspect that Lawende and Levy saw jtr with Eddowes, but since he wasn't committing the murder no court could convict him on that. I believe the witnesses said they didn't really take a good look at the man and couldn't identify him again. The claim that there was a desire to protect a "fellow Jew" doesn't seem to be anything more than a rumor..
Surely many people saw jtr, but not in the act of murder or fleeing the crime scene. That's why i think Ressler's jtr profile is incorrect. The ripper liked to flirt with danger. He took precautions and was arrogant enough to believe he'd get away, despite the odds. Unfortunately he did get away.
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Sept 17, 2010 13:28:01 GMT
I'm not talking about a court indicting him. There is nothing that has ever been written or produced about Jack that could ever put anyone in front of a magistrate. They simply didn't have enough forensic evidence to that.
But Jack was a disorganized killer. Absolutely.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 18, 2010 5:14:22 GMT
I'm not talking about a court indicting him. There is nothing that has ever been written or produced about Jack that could ever put anyone in front of a magistrate. They simply didn't have enough forensic evidence to that. But Jack was a disorganized killer. Absolutely. The crime scene was certainly messy! The mutilations were repetitive and done quickly.
jtr waited until the weekend to strike, which not only suggests that he was employed, but argues against him being uncontrolled and compulsive. He waited until the witnesses were gone at Mitre Square before he struck or behaved suspiciously. He obviously didn't want to be caught.
My guess is jtr was a "hobby killer", who liked to shock society, like someone who paints Swastikas on public buildings. Like the btk killer jtr's lasting pleasure was the shock effect he caused. I just can't see an uncontrolled, compulsive, undisciplined jtr getting away.
If jtr had his eyes ( and ears ) fixated on the victim during the strangulation and mutilation then i'd concede you and Ressler are right. If while committing his crimes his eyes and ears were focused on the surroundings and the danger of being discovered then i continue to respectfully dissent! The Kelly murder of course was an exception and a change of modus operandi.
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Sept 18, 2010 6:40:01 GMT
If you look at where the murders were committed, Jack was led to these places by the victims themselves. There was no 'comfort' zone for Jack like his house (or these days a car or truck) like his Yorkshire namesake. He killed once he got them alone. Of course he took chances. How else would you explain Dutfield's Yard or Hanbury St? I think he would have preferred not being caught but I don't think fear of capture would have ever put him off. He was impulsive - disorganized and not interested in anything except his mutilations.
Mitre Sq again I think he was in the shadows when the copper came through on his rounds off Aldgate and down Mitre St. I've found a book on Jack I've never read before (which was a pleasant surprise) called JTR and the East End. It has terrific photos and commentary on the social conditions of the East End when Jack was at work. It contains a plan of Mitre Sq and the scene of the murder. I've only seen the usual drawing of the body etc but this one, drawn by Frederick Foster, was introduced at the inquest. It shows the position of the gas lamps at the scene. One was at the point where Mitre St and Mitre Sq joined, the other was down at the other end of the square. If I can ever find it on line I'll post it. What it effectively shows is that Jack was working in the dark and was in no danger of being seen by anyone. Either copper coming in and flashing their lamp would not have seen him or Eddowes.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 18, 2010 14:51:38 GMT
Hi Gabe! I've tried to find detailed maps of Mitre Square in 1888, but didn't have any luck.
My feeling is jtr wanted from the start to kill his first 5 victims in public places and display them. He was perfectly capable of waiting and taking his victims to a safer place, if he wanted to concentrate on the murder. That in my opinion wasn't his goal. That's were i disagree with you and Ressler.
The Kelly murder was either a change in modus operandi, a 2nd jtr or Miss Kelly simply led him to her room and there was no chance to strike without witnesses. The Kelly murder does support the claim that the mutilations were his goal. Some serial killers develope new lusts along the way. It's just my suspicion that with the first 5 victims his eyes were focused away from the victims when he was murdering and mutilating. With Mrs. Eddowes he had time to mutilate her face, but the ripper immediately stopped when the constable appeared and was gone when the body was discovered. This isn't the pattern of a disorganized, compulsive and undisciplined murder.
If his eyes were focused on the victims the whole time, i'm wrong!
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 18, 2010 15:02:36 GMT
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Sept 19, 2010 6:39:53 GMT
Look, it's by some amateurs and it's a bit of silliness.
Jack wasn't about the throat slashing - he was about the mutilations. That's how he got his jollies.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 19, 2010 13:37:45 GMT
Look, it's by some amateurs and it's a bit of silliness. Jack wasn't about the throat slashing - he was about the mutilations. That's how he got his jollies. The film also seems to twist the facts by portraying Sir Robert Anderson as stating that Druitt was the ripper www.casebook.org/police_officials/po-ander.html . In reality it seems Sir Anderson pointed the finger at Kosminski.
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Sept 20, 2010 5:53:49 GMT
Yep, he did. Backed up by Donald Swanson. www.jack-the-ripper.org/kosminski.htmAccording to Melville Macnaghten in his 1894 Memoranda one of the three men who was more likely than Thomas Cutbush to have been Jack the Ripper was “Kosminski” who, according to Macnaghten, was “… a Polish Jew, & resident in Whitechapel. This man became insane owing to many years indulgence in solitary vices. He had a great hatred of women, especially of the prostitute class, & had strong homicidal tendencies; he was removed to a lunatic asylum about March 1889…” Kosminski is of particular interest because, in addition to Macnaghten, the two highest ranking officers, with direct responsibility for the Jack the Ripper investigation, also considered him the to be a strong suspect for the Jack the Ripper murders. In 1910 Sir Robert Anderson, Assistant Commissioner throughout the murders, wrote in his memoirs that "…'undiscovered murders’ are rare in London, and the ‘Jack-the-Ripper’ crimes are not in that category... I will merely add that the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer unhesitatingly identified the suspect the instant he was confronted with him; but he refused to give evidence against him…In saying that he was a Polish Jew I am merely stating a definitely ascertained fact…" Although Anderson didn’t name this suspect, it is apparent that he was referring to Macnaghten’s ‘Kosminski,’ a fact confirmed in 1987 when Chief Inspector Donald Swanson’s copy of Anderson’s memoir was made public.Swanson was the officer tasked with assessing all the information on the Jack the Ripper case, and few people possessed anything like his comprehensive knowledge of the murders. He and Anderson became firm friends and when The Lighter Side of My Official Life was published, Swanson received his own personally inscribed copy. Swanson made penciled annotations to Anderson’s narrative, and in so doing provided a little more information. Where Anderson talks of a witness "...unhesitatingly identifying their suspect but he refusing to give evidence against him…" Swanson explains that this was "…Because the suspect was also a Jew… and witness would be the means of murderer being hanged which he did not wish to be left on his mind.." He goes on to say that, following this identification, the suspect was returned to his brother’s house in Whitechapel where the City Police kept him under constant surveillance. A short time later this suspect was taken to Stepney Workhouse and from there he was sent to Colney Hatch lunatic asylum where, according to Swanson, he died shortly afterwards. Swanson ends with the emphatic statement that "Kosminski was the suspect." It is now known that the suspect in question was a man named Aaron Kosminski, a feeble minded imbecile, who was admitted to Colney Hatch Asylum in February 1891, but who had begun displaying signs of insanity at some stage in the late 1880’s. He believed that a higher power spoke to him, and controlled his actions, and claimed to know the movements of all mankind. He refused to wash and would not accept food from others, preferring instead to eat from the gutter. Schizophrenic, delusional, paranoid and incoherent are all characteristics displayed by Aaron Kosminski. But there are numerous arguments against his having been Jack the Ripper.Swanson, apparently new little about his fate, as Kosminski didn’t, as Swanson claimed, die shortly after being admitted to Colney Hatch asylum. In fact he lived for many years, transferring to Leavesden Asylum in 1894, where he died in 1919. Throughout the entire period of his confinement Aaron Kosminski was never classed as homicidal, and it is specifically stated in his records, that he was not a danger to others. Some of his notes state that he was excitable, but the only mention of his being violent was that he once grabbed a chair and made to strike an attendant with it. Anderson and Swanson were the two highest ranking officers with direct responsibility for the Ripper investigation, and they were both in a position to know the evidence against all the suspects. Yet, unless they are referring to a different Kosminski, or there is more information about him that has yet to come to light, there is little evidence to link Aaron Kosminski to the Jack the Ripper murders.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 20, 2010 6:32:48 GMT
Interesting Gabriel! This does cast a shadow on Kosminski, but there's no protocol surrounding the "identification" of Kosminski by a fellow Jew and Sir Anderson doesn't give a graphic account. Secondly the suspect Kosminski-assuming the identification is correct wasn't doing anything suspicious, when the witness saw him, other than being with Miss Eddowes shortly before her murder. Not enough for a hanging!
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Sept 20, 2010 6:46:27 GMT
If it was Kosminski and I don't believe that it was. He just didn't have the makeup to be a serial killer.
It was someone like Kosminski, I believe, who was Jack.
But you're right. There is not enough evidence that could have ever brought anyone before a magistrate to be charged. Because they had to be caught in the act. But still, Lawende and Levy must have said or done something to make these 2 top cops believe that they could ID Jack but wouldn't because he was a 'fellow Jew'.
A lot of people have tried to find evidence to link Kosminski. Martin Fido even wrote a book identifying him as Martin Cohen. He was sent to Colney Hatch at the right time but...
Actually, it's a perfect night for Jack. It's September and there's a very heavy fog descending now. Only prob, this isn't Whitechapel.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 20, 2010 7:15:34 GMT
In addition to Aaron Kosminski there is also a Martin Kosminski, who was alledgedly acquainted with the witness.
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on Sept 20, 2010 11:05:59 GMT
In addition to Aaron Kosminski there is also a Martin Kosminski, who was alledgedly acquainted with the witness.
You'll have to fill me in on this one. You don't mean Nathan Kaminsky?
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 20, 2010 16:34:33 GMT
In addition to Aaron Kosminski there is also a Martin Kosminski, who was alledgedly acquainted with the witness.
You'll have to fill me in on this one. You don't mean Nathan Kaminsky? lespickstock.co.uk/ripper/other.htm QUOTE: In 1877 an application for naturalisation was made by a Martin Kosminski, supported by Joseph Hyam Levy - one of the witnesses to an attack on Catherine Eddowes on her fateful night. If the attacker was this Kosminski, Levy must surely have recognised him? UNQUOTE I tried to find out more about "Martin". The only lead i found goes to the unmentionable writings of the English fascist ideologue Arnold Leese, who essentially does the same thing with Jews that some ripperologists do with Freemasons.
There are some very dark places within this topic!
|
|