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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2009 18:52:22 GMT
To be fair, Beth, the passage chosen was, as the mother said, pretty neutral. I thought it was incomprehensible too for that age group, but that is perhaps another issue.
The BBC's Today Programme has a "Thought for the Day" slot which has people speaking from all faiths and (latterly) none. Generally ,what they say is relevant to everyone, and gives me faith that people share a set of common values, no matter what their religion.
But giving parents a free rein is a dangerous practice and as you say, it is possible the mother had it all planned.
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Post by trubble on Jul 11, 2009 21:48:31 GMT
It's a shame that this woman is being targeted! we can quote Darwin, Shakespeare or Marx to children, but not the Bible... The Hebrew expression to "fear God" is meant to mean something much more than just an ordinary feeling of respect.. In most languages fear is associated only with danger and negatives, but not in the Biblical expression to "fear God". God not only takes our sins, but our fear as well! multilingualbible.com/psalms/118-4.htm In Psalm 118-6 we read: bible.cc/psalms/118-6.htm QUOTE: King James Bible The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me? Yes, I read that line: Let them now that fear the Lord say, that his mercy endureth forever as a plea that those who are wary, fearful or vulnerable be enlightened by and to the Lord's good love. (BTW I'm not a follower of religion but I used to be.) Beth: My friend's parents were very religious, the dad taught religion in school and it was a household that revolved around God and the Bible, every part of it. Her parents would not have done what this mother did either. This is a case of a fanatic, I guess. The object of her fanaticism is probably irrelevant, she probably is that type of person, which makes it such a shame that she is forcing people to fight christianity.
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Post by chefmate on Jul 12, 2009 1:49:58 GMT
The mother had to have known the controversy it would ignite by reading that scripture in a public classroom so why did she do it?
When I was 24 years old I was getting a divorce; the pastor of the Lutheran church came over to counsel me and although I have forgotten the whole conversation, one phrase is stuck in my head from 33 years ago.......he said "if you get a divorce, you are putting another thorn into the crown on Christ's head".....oh yea, nothing like a guilt trip but because I was naive I stayed quiet and still got the divorce but that was a rude thing to say.
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Post by Liberator on Jul 12, 2009 2:32:37 GMT
It's a shame that this woman is being targeted! we can quote Darwin, Shakespeare or Marx to children, but not the Bible... The Hebrew expression to "fear God" is meant to mean something much more than just an ordinary feeling of respect.. In most languages fear is associated only with danger and negatives, but not in the Biblical expression to "fear God". God not only takes our sins, but our fear as well! multilingualbible.com/psalms/118-4.htm In Psalm 118-6 we read: bible.cc/psalms/118-6.htm QUOTE: King James Bible The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me? Yes, I read that line: Let them now that fear the Lord say, that his mercy endureth forever as a plea that those who are wary, fearful or vulnerable be enlightened by and to the Lord's good love. Do you mean reassure those who are afraid of their god that he is nothing to be afraid of? I don't really see it that way. Nor do I buy this line that 'fear' in the Hebrew context related to God had a different meaning from in every other case. Is there any support for that belief except retrospective reasoning that it could not possibly have meant how it sounds, so they must have intended something else? The OT deity is consistently cruel and even describes himself as jealous, vengeful, punishing unto the seventh generation of wholly innocents because of what their ancestors did. The description of 'Mercy' there is exactly the same as the Greek idea of the Furies as the kindly ones and any Oriental despot that the image of YHWH is modelled after, as so terrible that pretending they are kind and merciful is a way to ameliorate their horror and prevent them from being any worse. As far as I am concerned, the understanding of what the OT calls 'God' is the personification of evil.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 12, 2009 6:21:31 GMT
Yes, I read that line: Let them now that fear the Lord say, that his mercy endureth forever as a plea that those who are wary, fearful or vulnerable be enlightened by and to the Lord's good love. Do you mean reassure those who are afraid of their god that he is nothing to be afraid of? I don't really see it that way. Nor do I buy this line that 'fear' in the Hebrew context related to God had a different meaning from in every other case. Is there any support for that belief except retrospective reasoning that it could not possibly have meant how it sounds, so they must have intended something else? The OT deity is consistently cruel and even describes himself as jealous, vengeful, punishing unto the seventh generation of wholly innocents because of what their ancestors did. The description of 'Mercy' there is exactly the same as the Greek idea of the Furies as the kindly ones and any Oriental despot that the image of YHWH is modelled after, as so terrible that pretending they are kind and merciful is a way to ameliorate their horror and prevent them from being any worse. As far as I am concerned, the understanding of what the OT calls 'God' is the personification of evil. Dearest Retarsed! This is the Hebrew word from Psalm 118-4 which is translated as fear, but it has secondary meanings. www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=03372 QUOTE: 1) to fear, be afraid 2) to stand in awe of, be awed 3) to fear, reverence, honour, respect Beth, Trubble, SkyLark, chefmate! Everyone is free to express their opinion and this woman has my support! Donna Kay Busch is the mother of one of the children there and if you reread BigLin's post we read that the children and mothers were invited to make a "presentation".. A few Bible verses are no big deal. If some of the children have parents of a different faith they may express their views too.. America is all about free, fair and open expression as well as debate..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2009 7:06:01 GMT
Anna, "fear" has all these interpretations, but probably only has one meaning for a five year old - unless he has been brought up to believe otherwise. That's why I thought the verse was inappropriate - and I still do.
There are ways of getting rules changed, and making a stand at your small child's "All about me" presentation is not one most of us would favour!
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Post by Liberator on Jul 12, 2009 11:35:44 GMT
I would understand if the translators had picked 'rever' or 'behold in awe' but 'fear' has only ever meant 'be afraid of'. It is something of a back-formation to ameliorate the biblical usage to explain it as simple reverence. It may say more about 16th century Christianity than ancient Judaeism!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2009 12:09:16 GMT
Well, maybe the mother did find a translation with a different word - I couldn't find one but I only looked at a couple.
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Post by trubble on Jul 12, 2009 15:13:28 GMT
Yes, I read that line: Let them now that fear the Lord say, that his mercy endureth forever as a plea that those who are wary, fearful or vulnerable be enlightened by and to the Lord's good love. Do you mean reassure those who are afraid of their god that he is nothing to be afraid of? I don't really see it that way. Nor do I buy this line that 'fear' in the Hebrew context related to God had a different meaning from in every other case. Is there any support for that belief except retrospective reasoning that it could not possibly have meant how it sounds, so they must have intended something else? The OT deity is consistently cruel and even describes himself as jealous, vengeful, punishing unto the seventh generation of wholly innocents because of what their ancestors did. The description of 'Mercy' there is exactly the same as the Greek idea of the Furies as the kindly ones and any Oriental despot that the image of YHWH is modelled after, as so terrible that pretending they are kind and merciful is a way to ameliorate their horror and prevent them from being any worse. As far as I am concerned, the understanding of what the OT calls 'God' is the personification of evil. No reassure exactly but understand their fear and translate it. Hmm, that's badly put but I can't think of another way to phrase it just now. I can also read it as ''let those who rightly respect and truly understand the power of the Lord declare how good He is and acknowledge His infinity''. (Like people should fear the sea when they realise its power and nature. And that fear should express itself as respect. Or like people might stop being merely scared of the overwhelming power of real love and embrace and understand it instead - feel the fear and do it anyway sorta mantra.)
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Post by trubble on Jul 12, 2009 15:15:19 GMT
The mother had to have known the controversy it would ignite by reading that scripture in a public classroom so why did she do it? When I was 24 years old I was getting a divorce; the pastor of the Lutheran church came over to counsel me and although I have forgotten the whole conversation, one phrase is stuck in my head from 33 years ago.......he said "if you get a divorce, you are putting another thorn into the crown on Christ's head".....oh yea, nothing like a guilt trip but because I was naive I stayed quiet and still got the divorce but that was a rude thing to say. lol! You are making baby jesus cry, cheffie. ;D It sounds like a desperate man trying anything to manipulate you into his little world of dictatorship morals.
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Post by trubble on Jul 12, 2009 15:19:23 GMT
Beth, Trubble, SkyLark, chefmate! Everyone is free to express their opinion and this woman has my support! Donna Kay Busch is the mother of one of the children there and if you reread BigLin's post we read that the children and mothers were invited to make a "presentation".. A few Bible verses are no big deal. If some of the children have parents of a different faith they may express their views too.. America is all about free, fair and open expression as well as debate.. Yes, that's all fair but it ignores the age and awareness of the child the mother is telling us she represents. She has said she is fighting on his behalf but she's not - she is fighting for her own principles on her own behalf so she's either lying or confused.
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Post by chefmate on Jul 12, 2009 17:07:50 GMT
In public schools in America a few Bible verses are a big deal because of separation of church and state.
If it was a private Christian school not a word would be said as there would be no controversy but she stepped into the public arena knowing the consequences; the darn five year old has NO clue what is transpiring and as to a child that age having a favorite bible verse, let's see how he is in about eight years as to be so gung ho about scripture.
We have no idea if the child truly loves the bible or is pleasing his mommy because he can see that it makes her happy.
I personally wish parents could never ever teach religion to their kids as that messes up so many of them but that is a dream that will never happen.
I have nothing against teaching morals but religion is for grownups; not children who can't discern the difference of truth and falsehoods and pure bullshyt.
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Post by Liberator on Jul 12, 2009 18:54:34 GMT
Truth is probably that if parents did not teach that kind of detailed religion at an age to early for children to understand it, they probably would not be able to when the kids are old enough to ask awkward questions - not least why all this stuff is about Jews thousands of years ago when so many people have a very ambivalent attitude to Jews. If it is valid for Christians then why don't they have synagogues and keep Mosaic law? If they don't do any of that, then why is it valid except as a part of the background to Christianity? The other part is of course Graeco-Roman culture.
I'm all for teaching kids a sort of be nice religion because the idea of some Influence is probably easier to get through to them that abstract philosophical ethics. But like St. Paul "When I became a man I put away childish things". Some people never grow out of worrying whether they've got the story right to learn what it supposed to be telling them.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 13, 2009 3:10:55 GMT
Well, maybe the mother did find a translation with a different word - I couldn't find one but I only looked at a couple. Here's one! I'm sure i could find more..Translating "worshippers of the Lord" back to Old Hebrew as "those who fear God" would be OK! bible.cc/psalms/118-4.htm QUOTE: Bible in Basic English Let all worshippers of the Lord now say, that his mercy is unchanging for ever.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 13, 2009 3:21:38 GMT
Truth is probably that if parents did not teach that kind of detailed religion at an age to early for children to understand it, they probably would not be able to when the kids are old enough to ask awkward questions - not least why all this stuff is about Jews thousands of years ago when so many people have a very ambivalent attitude to Jews. If it is valid for Christians then why don't they have synagogues and keep Mosaic law? If they don't do any of that, then why is it valid except as a part of the background to Christianity? The other part is of course Graeco-Roman culture. With the teachings of Christ and forgiveness the "punishment til the 10th generation" isn't a must. Christ was very critical of the Pharisees, who later authored the Talmud.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 13, 2009 3:40:02 GMT
Beth, Trubble, SkyLark, chefmate! Everyone is free to express their opinion and this woman has my support! Donna Kay Busch is the mother of one of the children there and if you reread BigLin's post we read that the children and mothers were invited to make a "presentation".. A few Bible verses are no big deal. If some of the children have parents of a different faith they may express their views too.. America is all about free, fair and open expression as well as debate.. Yes, that's all fair but it ignores the age and awareness of the child the mother is telling us she represents. She has said she is fighting on his behalf but she's not - she is fighting for her own principles on her own behalf so she's either lying or confused. I believe she's fighting for something much greater than herself! In her position i would have done likewise! I would have recommended presenting Christ's Parabole of the "Good Samaratan"! BUT Maybe Mrs. Busch's son preferred the Psalm 118 reading.
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Post by Liberator on Jul 13, 2009 12:03:04 GMT
Marcion wanted to throw the Old Testament away and use only the gospel - Luke I think. He had some other odd ideas but it led to having to decide what went into a canonical Bible. Not that the churches all agree or the West fixed it until the Reformation.
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